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Jack wrote: |
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> On 8/28/20 12:33 PM, james wrote: |
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>> On 8/27/20 10:11 PM, Dale wrote: |
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>>> james wrote: |
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>>>> Gentoo, |
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>>>> |
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>>>> |
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>>>> |
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>>>> https://blogs.gentoo.org/mgorny/2020/08/25/is-an-umbrella-organization-a-good-choice-for-gentoo/ |
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>>>> |
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>>>> |
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>>>> |
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>>>> Surely some of the business/legal savvy folks want to "chime in" on |
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>>>> Sir Gorny's proposal? |
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>>>> |
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>>>> |
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>>>> I just read this on 'hacker news' |
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>>>> |
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>>>> It just sounds like mostly a lack of fund raising to operate? |
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>>>> |
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>>>> |
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>>>> James |
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>>>> |
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>>>> |
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>>> |
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>>> |
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>>> There's several issues that lead to this.� For ages, the financial |
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>>> books were not kept up to date.� From what I recall, some |
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>>> paperwork was lost which made it difficult to impossible to do the |
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>>> needed IRS filings. Things on that part seemed to snowball from |
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>>> there.� In the past few years or so, that has been dealt with and |
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>>> from what I've read, it is now up to date and they are trying to get |
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>>> back in good standing with the IRS and other Govt entities.� I |
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>>> think I read where most of the hard work as already been done, just |
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>>> needs time to kick in.� It isn't hard to get into that situation, |
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>>> it just takes one year with a mistake to trigger bad things.� It |
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>>> takes a lot of work to get it cleared up tho.� All of us should be |
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>>> grateful to the ones who put in the hard work to get that taken care |
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>>> of.� I'm sure it took a lot of effort and time to get that |
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>>> done.� I'm sure it was boring as heck to do as well.� Some of us |
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>>> would likely have no hair left. |
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>>> |
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>>> Another issue, not many want to run the foundation.� The devs |
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>>> mostly want to write code.� They aren't to much interested in |
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>>> running the foundation part of it.� A few do because it is needed |
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>>> and they do their best, some even go far beyond that, but they |
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>>> really want to write code. That's what developers came to Gentoo |
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>>> for after all. Since there is two different bodies that run Gentoo |
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>>> in different ways, it further reduces the number of people wanting |
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>>> to do the job.� The foundation part is from my understanding, |
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>>> bureaucratic paperwork.� Who wants to do that for free?� There's |
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>>> not many. Basically, if you run for a position on the foundation, |
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>>> it's good odds you get it because usually just enough run to fill |
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>>> the open spots.� I often wonder, do they draw straws to pick |
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>>> people to run just so things keep chugging along??� LOL |
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>>> |
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>>> Then there is the costs.� It costs to deal with all the paperwork |
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>>> and filings.� There's state filings as well as federal.� Missing |
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>>> either of those can cause trouble for the other and also get |
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>>> expensive and time consuming to correct.� Again, very few want to |
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>>> deal with it.� The few that do likely do it because Gentoo needs |
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>>> it not because they are jumping up and down wanting to do it.� |
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>>> It's what keeps Gentoo going. It's cheaper to join some other group |
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>>> like has been talked about for years and let them take a percentage |
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>>> of the money and them as professionals handle all that nasty |
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>>> paperwork and filings. |
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>>> |
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>>> My personal opinion.� I'm still leaning to keep Gentoo as it is |
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>>> but I'm not the one doing all the boring work either.� My concern, |
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>>> Gentoo joins some group and it ends badly for Gentoo.� Maybe they |
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>>> screw up something and that puts Gentoo and maybe everyone else in |
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>>> the group in jeopardy with govt entities or lawsuits.� On the |
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>>> other hand, if Gentoo doesn't have the right people, they could do |
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>>> the same thing to themselves.� The people who do run for those |
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>>> seats do try their best even if something goes wrong.� Thing is, |
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>>> it doesn't take much to run afoul of govt entities or trigger a |
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>>> lawsuit. Gentoo has been lucky in that regard. There is no easy |
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>>> answer to this.� Either way has advantages.� Same can be said |
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>>> for disadvantages as well. |
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>>> |
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>>> I'm sure there is more that isn't known to the public and I'm sure |
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>>> some things are escaping my mind at the moment.� Either way, |
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>>> whatever keeps Gentoo going and successful, that is what needs to be |
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>>> done.� Since I don't have a crystal ball, I'm not sure which is |
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>>> best long term. |
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>>> |
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>>> Now someone add more to this.� ;-) |
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>>> |
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>>> Dale |
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>>> |
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>>> :-)� :-) |
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>> |
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>> The referenced article says this: |
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>> |
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>> "Right now we�re already relying on a CPA to handle our filings. |
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>> For a commercial company (we are one now), the cost is $1500 a year." |
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>> |
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>> Seems way too high. I pay $500/yr for a C corp here in Florida; a |
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>> firm that that is "outstanding" with the US IRS. |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> "If we wanted to go for proper non-profit, the estimated cost is |
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>> between $2000 and $3000 a year." |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> Still seems way to high. With Gentoo, we can use Any state, so why |
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>> not move the home to a low cost state? |
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>> |
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>> Many corps use Delaware, just for that reason. |
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> I think most of those listed numbers are not just the official filing |
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> fees, but include paying a CPA to do the filings. While certified CPA |
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> is not required to do any of those filings, I suspect it is now that |
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> way because historically, the volunteer who was supposed to do it |
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> didn't. Paying someone does seem excessively expensive, but you know |
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> it will get done, and if not, you have some legal recourse. |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> "If we were to pass full accounting to an external company, the rough |
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>> estimate I�ve been given by Trustees is $2400. So once our |
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>> volunteer bookkeeper retires, we�re talking of around $4000 + |
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>> larger taxes for a corporation, or $4500 to $5500 + very little taxes |
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>> for a non-profit." |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> Again, these numbers are WAY TOO HIGH. Shop around! |
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>> Many states are way less expensive. |
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> Again, I think those numbers are to pay someone to handle the filings, |
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> not just the fees. I don't suppose it really changes much about the |
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> discussion. |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> Ok so ask why don't I volunteer? I've been using gentoo, since 2002. |
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>> I have made many enemies, because of my views on the whole "install" |
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>> abortion. WE could easily help another loosely coupled, gentoo |
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>> derivative distro |
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>> create a robust, easy install system, whilst leaving "Gentoo Proper" |
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>> as an enclave for the brilliant. |
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>> |
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>> It there were agreement to that sort "diatribe", enthusiastically, |
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>> THEN I could help the trustee situation, and help bring in lots of |
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>> cash to pay devs for what every reason the technical leaders decide. |
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>> |
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>> CoreOS, gentoo-install (Mike Mol), CloverOS, and dozens and dozens |
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>> (over the years) have solved this problem, bot did not receive any |
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>> love or praise from the Gentoo devs...... |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> So, if Gentoo wants money, as a charity, it is so simple, it hurts. |
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>> BUT a few things have to change (non-negotiable)! |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> I've done this too many times with dozens of folks. ALL are |
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>> multi-millionaires. MONEY is easy, but it does come with strings |
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>> (actually very few for something like gentoo). The current situation |
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>> is pathetic and easy to fix. Be warned, when it comes to money, and I |
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>> am on the responsibility chain, I tend to be a bit dictatorial. Once |
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>> the money starts flowing in, I'd look to hand things off to a much |
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>> younger techie, so he(she) can build there resume and I can drift |
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>> back into oblivion, |
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>> in a cabin, in the woods....... |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> For me, it just breaks my heart to see Gentoo needed to have one of |
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>> our (currently) awesome coders have to "prostrate" himself publicly |
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>> like this. But, if a broken system/leadership is broken, then that is |
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>> the sign things need to change. This has been a recurring situation, |
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>> for 2 decades now. Just look around, most other distros have so much |
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>> 'action' going on, they are rolling in cabbage. |
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>> |
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>> Perhaps the Gentoo council members ought to engage the gentoo-user |
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>> list, directly? Surely others would have solution, very viable, to |
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>> what I have proposed? |
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>> |
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>> The second thing I'd do, if on the council, is have a direct program |
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>> for High School age kids to use Gentoo to become entrepreneurs. |
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>> That's right, how to form a C-corp, write some codes and start |
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>> receiving funds directly into their C-corp. Minimum goal? Self |
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>> Funding for Secondary education. Learn Business via gentoo, and |
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>> coding "from the masters" aka gentoo devs. |
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>> |
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>> There are tons of methods for young entrepreneurs to access funding |
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>> and grants, if you "get your house in order". For that, it means a |
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>> simple Rasp. Pi. 4 sourcecode install? The microprocessor companies |
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>> would line up to build boards, for these kids. EASY as PIE! |
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>> |
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>> Be Bold and Be Bad_ass, if you want to live and prosper in this day |
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>> and age. |
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>> |
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>> |
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>> painfully, |
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>> James |
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>> |
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>> |
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> |
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> |
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|
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|
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I agree there is likely more done with those fees than just filing |
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paperwork. I've read there is a CPA involved and I recall lawyer being |
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mentioned a few times too. Another thing, some devs aren't even in the |
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USA. I'm sure any expenses related to things they do are more |
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complicated to file. Since the GSoC thing is almost always |
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international, I'm sure it requires more detailed tracking and time to |
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compile the info. Given that air traffic, read that as mail services, |
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between the USA and other countries is shutdown due to the bug, that may |
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complicate things even more. |
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|
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I think the person who is handling things now might could do the |
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paperwork and filing BUT it takes time. I think they spent most of |
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their time trying to fix history not more recent things. From the sound |
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of it, getting back in to the good graces of the IRS was a difficult and |
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time consuming ordeal. Let's keep in mind, that person as far as I know |
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is not paid. They spend time on it as they can just like devs do with |
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code. If they have a bad week at work, that could mean nothing Gentoo |
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gets done that week. After all, real life has to be looked after first. |
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|
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As to forking, its been done before. As a general rule, someone thinks |
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they have a much better plan so off they go. Most don't make it long |
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and so far, I don't think any of the survivors have come close to the |
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success of Gentoo itself. I've never really seen the sense in forking |
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as long as Gentoo is still working and serving a persons need. |
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|
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Sort of waiting for Rich to chime in here. He likely knows more of what |
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is going on plus may remember things better than me. ;-) |
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|
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Dale |
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|
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:-) :-) |