Gentoo Archives: gentoo-user

From: Dale <rdalek1967@×××××.com>
To: gentoo-user@l.g.o
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Council vs Umbrella Corp ?
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 2020 17:20:21
Message-Id: e0701fb7-21f2-a445-f8d8-892459905132@gmail.com
In Reply to: Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Council vs Umbrella Corp ? by Jack
1 Jack wrote:
2 > On 8/28/20 12:33 PM, james wrote:
3 >> On 8/27/20 10:11 PM, Dale wrote:
4 >>> james wrote:
5 >>>> Gentoo,
6 >>>>
7 >>>>
8 >>>>
9 >>>> https://blogs.gentoo.org/mgorny/2020/08/25/is-an-umbrella-organization-a-good-choice-for-gentoo/
10 >>>>
11 >>>>
12 >>>>
13 >>>> Surely some of the business/legal savvy folks want to "chime in" on
14 >>>> Sir Gorny's proposal?
15 >>>>
16 >>>>
17 >>>> I just read this on 'hacker news'
18 >>>>
19 >>>> It just sounds like mostly a lack of fund raising to operate?
20 >>>>
21 >>>>
22 >>>> James
23 >>>>
24 >>>>
25 >>>
26 >>>
27 >>> There's several issues that lead to this.� For ages, the financial
28 >>> books were not kept up to date.� From what I recall, some
29 >>> paperwork was lost which made it difficult to impossible to do the
30 >>> needed IRS filings.  Things on that part seemed to snowball from
31 >>> there.� In the past few years or so, that has been dealt with and
32 >>> from what I've read, it is now up to date and they are trying to get
33 >>> back in good standing with the IRS and other Govt entities.� I
34 >>> think I read where most of the hard work as already been done, just
35 >>> needs time to kick in.� It isn't hard to get into that situation,
36 >>> it just takes one year with a mistake to trigger bad things.� It
37 >>> takes a lot of work to get it cleared up tho.� All of us should be
38 >>> grateful to the ones who put in the hard work to get that taken care
39 >>> of.� I'm sure it took a lot of effort and time to get that
40 >>> done.� I'm sure it was boring as heck to do as well.� Some of us
41 >>> would likely have no hair left.
42 >>>
43 >>> Another issue, not many want to run the foundation.� The devs
44 >>> mostly want to write code.� They aren't to much interested in
45 >>> running the foundation part of it.� A few do because it is needed
46 >>> and they do their best, some even go far beyond that, but they
47 >>> really want to write code.  That's what developers came to Gentoo
48 >>> for after all. Since there is two different bodies that run Gentoo
49 >>> in different ways, it further reduces the number of people wanting
50 >>> to do the job.� The foundation part is from my understanding,
51 >>> bureaucratic paperwork.� Who wants to do that for free?� There's
52 >>> not many. Basically, if you run for a position on the foundation,
53 >>> it's good odds you get it because usually just enough run to fill
54 >>> the open spots.� I often wonder, do they draw straws to pick
55 >>> people to run just so things keep chugging along??� LOL
56 >>>
57 >>> Then there is the costs.� It costs to deal with all the paperwork
58 >>> and filings.� There's state filings as well as federal.� Missing
59 >>> either of those can cause trouble for the other and also get
60 >>> expensive and time consuming to correct.� Again, very few want to
61 >>> deal with it.� The few that do likely do it because Gentoo needs
62 >>> it not because they are jumping up and down wanting to do it.�
63 >>> It's what keeps Gentoo going. It's cheaper to join some other group
64 >>> like has been talked about for years and let them take a percentage
65 >>> of the money and them as professionals handle all that nasty
66 >>> paperwork and filings.
67 >>>
68 >>> My personal opinion.� I'm still leaning to keep Gentoo as it is
69 >>> but I'm not the one doing all the boring work either.� My concern,
70 >>> Gentoo joins some group and it ends badly for Gentoo.� Maybe they
71 >>> screw up something and that puts Gentoo and maybe everyone else in
72 >>> the group in jeopardy with govt entities or lawsuits.� On the
73 >>> other hand, if Gentoo doesn't have the right people, they could do
74 >>> the same thing to themselves.� The people who do run for those
75 >>> seats do try their best even if something goes wrong.� Thing is,
76 >>> it doesn't take much to run afoul of govt entities or trigger a
77 >>> lawsuit. Gentoo has been lucky in that regard.  There is no easy
78 >>> answer to this.� Either way has advantages.� Same can be said
79 >>> for disadvantages as well.
80 >>>
81 >>> I'm sure there is more that isn't known to the public and I'm sure
82 >>> some things are escaping my mind at the moment.� Either way,
83 >>> whatever keeps Gentoo going and successful, that is what needs to be
84 >>> done.� Since I don't have a crystal ball, I'm not sure which is
85 >>> best long term.
86 >>>
87 >>> Now someone add more to this.� ;-)
88 >>>
89 >>> Dale
90 >>>
91 >>> :-)� :-)
92 >>
93 >> The referenced article says this:
94 >>
95 >> "Right now we�re already relying on a CPA to handle our filings.
96 >> For a commercial company (we are one now), the cost is $1500 a year."
97 >>
98 >> Seems way too high. I pay $500/yr for a C corp here in Florida; a
99 >> firm that that is "outstanding" with the US IRS.
100 >>
101 >>
102 >> "If we wanted to go for proper non-profit, the estimated cost is
103 >> between $2000 and $3000 a year."
104 >>
105 >>
106 >> Still seems way to high. With Gentoo, we can use Any state, so why
107 >> not move the home to a low cost state?
108 >>
109 >> Many corps use Delaware, just for that reason.
110 > I think most of those listed numbers are not just the official filing
111 > fees, but include paying a CPA to do the filings.  While certified CPA
112 > is not required to do any of those filings, I suspect it is now that
113 > way because historically, the volunteer who was supposed to do it
114 > didn't.  Paying someone does seem excessively expensive, but you know
115 > it will get done, and if not, you have some legal recourse.
116 >>
117 >>
118 >> "If we were to pass full accounting to an external company, the rough
119 >> estimate I�ve been given by Trustees is $2400. So once our
120 >> volunteer bookkeeper retires, we�re talking of around $4000 +
121 >> larger taxes for a corporation, or $4500 to $5500 + very little taxes
122 >> for a non-profit."
123 >>
124 >>
125 >> Again, these numbers are WAY TOO HIGH. Shop around!
126 >> Many states are way less expensive.
127 > Again, I think those numbers are to pay someone to handle the filings,
128 > not just the fees.  I don't suppose it really changes much about the
129 > discussion.
130 >>
131 >>
132 >> Ok so ask why don't I volunteer? I've been using gentoo, since 2002.
133 >> I have made many enemies, because of my views on the whole "install"
134 >> abortion. WE could easily help another loosely coupled, gentoo
135 >> derivative distro
136 >> create a robust, easy install system, whilst leaving "Gentoo Proper"
137 >> as an enclave for the brilliant.
138 >>
139 >> It there were agreement to that sort "diatribe", enthusiastically,
140 >> THEN I could help the trustee situation, and help bring in lots of
141 >> cash to pay devs for what every reason the technical leaders decide.
142 >>
143 >> CoreOS, gentoo-install (Mike Mol), CloverOS, and dozens and dozens
144 >> (over the years) have solved this problem, bot did not receive any
145 >> love or praise from the Gentoo devs......
146 >>
147 >>
148 >> So, if Gentoo wants money, as a charity, it is so simple, it hurts.
149 >> BUT a few things have to change (non-negotiable)!
150 >>
151 >>
152 >> I've done this too many times with dozens of folks. ALL are
153 >> multi-millionaires. MONEY is easy, but it does come with strings
154 >> (actually very few for something like gentoo).  The current situation
155 >> is pathetic and easy to fix. Be warned, when it comes to money, and I
156 >> am on the responsibility chain, I tend to be a bit dictatorial. Once
157 >> the money starts flowing in, I'd look to hand things off to a much
158 >> younger techie, so he(she) can build there resume and I can drift
159 >> back into oblivion,
160 >> in a cabin, in the woods.......
161 >>
162 >>
163 >> For me, it just breaks my heart to see Gentoo needed to have one of
164 >> our (currently) awesome coders have to "prostrate" himself publicly
165 >> like this. But, if a broken system/leadership is broken, then that is
166 >> the sign things need to change. This has been a recurring situation,
167 >> for 2 decades now. Just look around, most other distros have so much
168 >> 'action' going on, they are rolling in cabbage.
169 >>
170 >> Perhaps the Gentoo council members ought to engage the gentoo-user
171 >> list, directly? Surely others would have solution, very viable, to
172 >> what I have proposed?
173 >>
174 >> The second thing I'd do, if on the council, is have a direct program
175 >> for High School age kids to use Gentoo to become entrepreneurs.
176 >> That's right, how to form a C-corp, write some codes and start
177 >> receiving funds directly into their C-corp. Minimum goal? Self
178 >> Funding for Secondary education. Learn Business via gentoo, and
179 >> coding "from the masters" aka gentoo devs.
180 >>
181 >> There are tons of methods for young entrepreneurs to access funding
182 >> and grants, if you "get your house in order". For that, it means a
183 >> simple Rasp. Pi. 4 sourcecode install? The microprocessor companies
184 >> would line up to build boards, for these kids. EASY as PIE!
185 >>
186 >> Be Bold and Be Bad_ass, if you want to live and prosper in this day
187 >> and age.
188 >>
189 >>
190 >> painfully,
191 >> James
192 >>
193 >>
194 >
195 >
196
197
198 I agree there is likely more done with those fees than just filing
199 paperwork.  I've read there is a CPA involved and I recall lawyer being
200 mentioned a few times too.  Another thing, some devs aren't even in the
201 USA.  I'm sure any expenses related to things they do are more
202 complicated to file.  Since the GSoC thing is almost always
203 international, I'm sure it requires more detailed tracking and time to
204 compile the info.  Given that air traffic, read that as mail services,
205 between the USA and other countries is shutdown due to the bug, that may
206 complicate things even more. 
207
208 I think the person who is handling things now might could do the
209 paperwork and filing BUT it takes time.  I think they spent most of
210 their time trying to fix history not more recent things.  From the sound
211 of it, getting back in to the good graces of the IRS was a difficult and
212 time consuming ordeal.  Let's keep in mind, that person as far as I know
213 is not paid.  They spend time on it as they can just like devs do with
214 code.  If they have a bad week at work, that could mean nothing Gentoo
215 gets done that week.  After all, real life has to be looked after first. 
216
217 As to forking, its been done before.  As a general rule, someone thinks
218 they have a much better plan so off they go.  Most don't make it long
219 and so far, I don't think any of the survivors have come close to the
220 success of Gentoo itself.  I've never really seen the sense in forking
221 as long as Gentoo is still working and serving a persons need. 
222
223 Sort of waiting for Rich to chime in here.  He likely knows more of what
224 is going on plus may remember things better than me.  ;-)
225
226 Dale
227
228 :-)  :-) 

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Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Council vs Umbrella Corp ? james <garftd@×××××××.net>