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On 25/04/2013 17:48, Mark David Dumlao wrote: |
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> On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 5:34 PM, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@××××××××.org> wrote: |
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>> I think you've hit the nail on the head. Complex setups require |
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>> complex software... deal with it. An analogy is that an 18-wheeler |
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>> semi-tractor trailer with a 17-speed manual transmission (plus air brakes |
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>> that require months of training to manage/use) is much more powerful |
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>> than a Chevy Sonic hatchback when it comes to hauling huge loads. But |
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>> for someoneone who merely wants to zip out to the supermarket and buy a |
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>> week's groceries, the hatchback is much more appropriate. |
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>> |
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>> Similarly, PulseAudio may be better at handling complex situations |
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>> like you describe. The yelling and screaming you're hearing are from |
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>> the 99% of people whose setups are not complex enough to justify |
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>> PulseAudio. Making 100% of setups more complex in order to handle the |
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>> 1% of edge cases is simply wrong. |
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> |
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> The "complexity" overhead of pulseaudio is vaaastly overstated here. |
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And you are vastly overstating the desirability of having pulseaudio |
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enforced on users without very good cause and seem to have |
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underestimated how deep that rabbit hole goes. |
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As others have stated, how many more such packages are there that can be |
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argued to have them on a system? A good first grab would be the number |
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of packages where the users are >=1% and <=99% |
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"It does no harm and might be useful for some" is simply not a valid |
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reason to enforce a package on all users, especially when said package |
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is the latest johnny-come-lately from a wunderkind with a proven |
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reputation for writing invasive code[1] and where the package in |
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question is merely the most recent between 4 valid choices, all of which |
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accomplish the basic action. |
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The world out there is always vastly more complex than you imagine and |
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your[2] system, or all systems of which you have knowledge, can never be |
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considered representative. What is good for you is seldom good for all. |
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I'm not rejecting pulseaudio. It solves a problem that exists and for |
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those that need it PA is a boon. I'm saying that there is no cause for |
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making PA mandatory, or even for having any sound capabilities on a |
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desktop machine at all. |
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[1] "invasive" here means "invasive", it does not imply good, bad, |
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indifferent or any other description of quality. Merely that Poetering's |
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code is invasive and disruptive. |
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[2] "you" here can just as easily mean "any one of the 7 billion humans |
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we've created so far" |
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> |
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> Yes, as a general principle, adding unneeded complexity is bad. But that takes |
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> into account general ideas on the relative tradeoffs of having it there or not. |
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> But listen to the happy PA users here who don't feel any problem with their |
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> setup. The complexity doesn't bite them. |
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> |
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> Analogy: |
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> 99% of people aren't going to need a11y. But the whole point of installing it |
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> by default on most desktop systems is that you can't predict who will need it, |
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> and _it does not harm_ (or very little harm) to the people who don't. |
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> |
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> So your tradeoffs are: |
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> A) no a11y unless elected by user: |
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> - for the 1%: a11y is a pain to install because the user might not |
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> even be able to see the screen (very big pain) |
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> - for the 99% use a few megabytes less on their disk. (very small gain) |
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> |
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> B) a11y for everyone unless elected removed: |
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> - for the 1%: they can use the system properly (no pain) |
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> - for the 99%: use a few megabytes more on their disk (very small pain) |
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> |
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> Obviously (B) is a better default choice. Ditto pulseaudio. |
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> -- |
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> This email is: [ ] actionable [ ] fyi [x] social |
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> Response needed: [ ] yes [x] up to you [ ] no |
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> Time-sensitive: [ ] immediate [ ] soon [x] none |
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> |
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-- |
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Alan McKinnon |
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alan.mckinnon@×××××.com |