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Interesting viewpoint, and some of the things you say do have |
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relevance Holly. Thanks. But, I still think things should be a |
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little easier for the average user. I'm really sick of the windows |
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admins who *think* linux is hard, when it's really not, and bash it |
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all the time because of that. I'm all for converting them. :) |
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|
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On 1/7/06, Holly Bostick <motub@××××××.nl> wrote: |
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> Trenton Adams schreef: |
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> > Oops, forgot to reply to everything. |
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> > |
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> > On 1/6/06, Holly Bostick <motub@××××××.nl> wrote: |
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> > |
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> >> Trenton Adams schreef: |
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> >> |
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> >>> On 1/5/06, Neil Bothwick <neil@××××××××××.uk> wrote: |
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> >>> |
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> >>> |
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> >>>> On Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:32:20 -0700, Trenton Adams wrote: |
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> >>>> |
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> >>>> |
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> >>>> |
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> >>>>>> something like |
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> >>>>>> |
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> >>>>>> if_blocked_by('openmotif') ewarn "You must unmerge |
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> >>>>>> openmotif before proceeding" |
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> >>>>> |
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> >>>>> Yes, or as follows... |
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> >>>>> |
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> >>>>> if_blocked_by('openmotif') auto_unmerge('openmotif') # |
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> >>>>> continue with merge which should automatically be merging |
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> >>>>> openmotif anyhow. |
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> >>>> |
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> >>>> Absolutely not! I don't want portage removing something I may |
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> >>>> be using at the time without my saying so. |
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> >>> |
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> >>> |
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> >>> Good point. Perhaps it should ask then? |
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> >>> |
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> >>> |
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> >> |
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> >> Well, it does, by stopping and waiting for you to perform an action |
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> >> and either restart the stopped process (if the action you took was |
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> >> to unmerge the blocking package), or to forego the stopped process |
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> >> entirely, if you choose not to remove the blocked package because |
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> >> you want to keep it for whatever reason (it could happen). |
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> >> |
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> >> You're assuming that unmerging the blocking package is *always* the |
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> >> right solution for everyone at all times (in this case, it's not |
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> >> really relevant, since motif-config will itself re-install |
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> >> openmotif), but the point of Gentoo is that you are in control. If |
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> >> I am in control, then I have to decide what I want done in each |
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> >> particular situation that occurs, which is exactly what I have to |
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> >> do with the current setup-- very obviously, since Portage will stop |
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> >> until I make a decision and act on it. So fine, your new updated |
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> >> Portage informs me there's a block, and says, "I could do this to |
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> >> solve it, shall I?" I myself am going to say "no", because I want |
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> >> to know the nature of the block, and how Portage's proposed action |
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> >> is going to affect the system that I have carefully customized to |
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> >> my individual needs. |
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> > |
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> > |
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> > Yes, flexibility is GREAT. That's one reason I really like gentoo, |
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> > and linux in general. However, I also like simplicity, or should I |
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> > say, I like to have the choice. So, one could easily make gentoo |
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> > have auto-detect and handle features, while allowing configuration |
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> > changes that disable automatic behaviour. You could have individual |
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> > enable/disable options for each feature, as well as one global |
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> > feature than enables/disables all auto-detect features. Then you |
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> > could have include/excludes for each feature so that the global would |
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> > not override them. |
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> > |
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> > So, the bottom line is this, one person says that things are |
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> > difficult because they need to be, in order to be flexible. But I |
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> > say that if things are truly flexible, then it should also be |
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> > possible to make them automatic, or simple. That's what I call |
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> > ULTIMATE flexiblity, which is what I mentioned in another post that I |
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> > made. When I originally started with gentoo linux, I read the part |
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> > about why gentoo linux came about. Basically it was all about doing |
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> > things the way you want. Well, I like the flexiblity, but I also |
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> > want the simplicity. :) Let us have the simplicity of RedHat, and |
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> > RPMs (waiting for flames), but with flexibility as well. |
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> |
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> Well, if this is your opinion, I must then accept the burden of being |
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> one of those members of the Linux community you mention |
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> |
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> Trenton Adams schreef: |
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> |
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> > Yes, and I've noticed there's a big problem with the linux community |
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> > at large. People that know and understand linux have a lot of the |
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> > times not helped the "open source" intiative, in that they like |
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> > things to be difficult, |
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> |
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> Although this is not strictly true.... I don't *like* things to be |
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> difficult, /per se/ but I do tend to do things "the hard way" rather |
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> than "the easy way" |
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> |
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> > because it makes them somehow seem smarter. In all reality, it |
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> > doesn't take a genius to use linux, just someone who likes to read a |
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> > whole lot. |
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> |
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> I do like to read a whole lot (always have), and I don't so much care |
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> how smart anyone thinks I am, but if I am in any way smart, I do want |
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> that to be recognized, which is a different thing. |
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> |
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> But if you leave out the rather insulting insinuation that such users |
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> are not in fact smart, but ego-trippers who just have nothing to do but |
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> read dry technical texts that no "normal" person would ever bother with, |
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> I'll cop to the charge. |
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> |
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> The thing is, I prefer things to be slightly more difficult because I |
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> believe that people using advanced tools should have a clue about how |
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> they work and how to use them properly. |
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> |
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> As I have said before, and will likely say again in the future, I |
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> believe that a policy of providing advanced technology, dumbed-down so |
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> that it "Just Works" to the "unwashed masses" (let us say, my |
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> boyfriend's grandmother, who is a very nice lady, or my aunt, or his |
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> mother, who are of an age and about the same level of computer expertise |
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> and interest-- which is to say, "none", although my bf's mother has now |
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> had a computer forced on her), is dangerously unwise. |
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> |
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> We have seen the results of doing so in both large and small ways, yet |
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> we persist. I believe that advanced technology should be sufficiently |
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> difficult to use until such time as it is "safe" (if it ever is) that |
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> people who don't want to think at all won't use it, to be frank. Because |
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> I don't want someone who doesn't want to think to be in control of |
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> advanced technology or tools whose misuse may well impact me (these are |
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> "advanced tools", after all, and that is one of the qualities that makes |
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> them "advanced"-- a wide range of impact), even if I never know that |
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> person, and never will. |
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> |
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> At least I know me, and at least if I rain destruction on my PC and my |
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> network, it's my own fault. I'm willing to take responsibility for that. |
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> I'm not willing to trust faceless developers at RedHat (or SuSE/Novell, |
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> or even Mandriva) with these responsibilities. On the other hand, I am |
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> willing to trust the Gentoo devs to a much greater degree, because 1) |
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> they *share* their knowledge freely (so I know what they're doing, if I |
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> can understand it); 2) they welcome my contribution/participation in |
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> what they are doing, in fact recommend it; and most importantly, 3) they |
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> draw and respect boundaries, beyond which I am expected to take |
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> responsibility for myself... which is how a good parent/administrator |
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> trains children/"average users" to become competent and knowledgeable |
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> adults/users. |
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> |
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> Something I've always remembered is that when I was learning to drive, |
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> the Department of Motor Vehicles required that all proposed licensees |
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> had to take this class where we watched a film about the evils of |
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> drinking and driving I think it was. In any case, the instructor said, |
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> "Most people on the road are not /drivers/. They are /operators of |
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> vehicles/." The difference being that operators of vehicles can get the |
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> vehicle from Point A to Point B, but don't really understand much about |
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> the complex interaction between the advanced technological tool they are |
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> operating (which they likely also know little about), the environment |
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> they are operating in, where other advanced technological tools are also |
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> operating, the impact of their operation on the (possibly incompetent) |
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> opertation of the others in the environment, and how the environment |
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> itself has been shaped specifically to make managing the interaction of |
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> all these elements and various random, unpredictable variables as smooth |
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> as possible, so that the goal can be reached-- all of which a driver |
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> would/must have a greater sense of. He proposed to set us on the path to |
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> being drivers, rather than operators of vehicles. |
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> |
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> Gentoo has a similar philosophy in the computer field. I can get your |
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> point about "ULTIMATE flexibility", but in the real world, in many |
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> fields, you are supposed to learn the hard way (learn the rules first) |
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> before you may take the easy way (break the rules), if you then choose |
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> to do so. And we all know that "most people", offered the choice of an |
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> easy way and a hard way are going to take the easy way *all the time*, |
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> and thus flail around in relative ignorance for the rest of their days. |
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> |
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> Which is exactly what I'm against-- ignorance. No, I don't want Gentoo |
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> to be all that "easy". But not because I want to put myself up as better |
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> than anybody-- I'm not in fact better than anybody. $DEITY knows, Neil |
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> knows way more than me, and even he makes mistakes :-) . But you can't |
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> learn if you don't try, and you can't try if you don't get the chance |
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> (because everything is so "easy" that you never have the opportunity). |
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> |
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> And I want to learn. I don't want to be ignorant. And I don't want |
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> Gentoo to "do it for me" until I know enough to know what letting it do |
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> so means-- at which point letting it do it for me is completely |
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> irrelevant (though possibly convienient in some situations), since by |
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> that time I know enough that what it's going to automatically could be |
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> done manually by me in the same amount of or possibly less time. |
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> |
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> So I am of the opinion that, as I said before, this is a cosmetic issue. |
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> If the devs have time to code a tool that will give more comprehensive |
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> output about the nature of any given block, and propose solutions that I |
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> can choose to accept or not, that's all very nice, as I said. |
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> |
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> But the X amount of time that it takes them to do that is about the same |
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> X amount of time that it takes me to just look the information up myself |
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> (the time it takes me to decide is unchanged, since I have to do that |
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> either way), and frankly, I'd rather that the devs spent that X amount |
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> of time doing something more substantive to enhancing my Gentoo experience. |
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> |
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> Maybe it's just me. |
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> |
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> Holly |
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> -- |
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> gentoo-user@g.o mailing list |
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> |
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> |
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|
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-- |
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gentoo-user@g.o mailing list |