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On Sun, 2021-01-17 at 05:17 +-0000, Thomas Mueller wrote: |
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+AD4- On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 12:01:48 +-0000, Alan Mackenzie wrote: |
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+AD4- |
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+AD4- +AD4- Hello, Gentoo. |
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+AD4- +AD4- On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 16:06:38 +-0000, Alan Mackenzie wrote: |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 22:15:25 -0000, Grant Edwards wrote: |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- On 2021-01-13, Alan Mackenzie +ADw-acm+AEA-muc.de+AD4- wrote: |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- I think bringing up a new Gentoo system absolutely requires |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- working in |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- the console, certainly up to the point where X11 and a Window |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- Manager |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- have been installed and debugged. |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- I usually install Gentoo via ssh. |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- The article I read about the removal of Linux console's |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- backscrolling |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- feature said it was mostly due to lack of a maintainer for that |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- code, |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- and that if somebody stepped forward to maintain it, it could |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- be revived. |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- I'm doing my best to step forward, but I suspect that will be |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- almost as |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- difficult as fixing the bugs in it. +ADs--) |
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+AD4- +AD4- And so it transpired. I subscribed to the linux-kernel list for a |
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+AD4- +AD4- short |
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+AD4- +AD4- time, and offered my services in a post. Not one single reply did |
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+AD4- +AD4- I get. |
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+AD4- +AD4- That list is not a friendly one. It gets an almost unmanageable |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AH4-2000 |
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+AD4- +AD4- posts a day, the vast bulk of which are patches, fragmented into, |
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+AD4- +AD4- perhaps, one diff hunk per post. |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- I'm disappointed that the decision to cut out this important |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- feature was |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- taken without any serious attempt to find a maintainer. I have |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- the |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- impression (though I may be wrong), that the problem was talked |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- about on |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- the linux kernel mailing list, but nobody there took it upon |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- himself to |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- post on any of the more hard-core distributions' mailing lists, |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- such as |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- gentoo's. |
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+AD4- +AD4- I've come to realise that Linus Torvalds, who personally took the |
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+AD4- +AD4- decision to remove the scrolling, doesn't care about users, and |
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+AD4- +AD4- indeed |
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+AD4- +AD4- regards them with disdain. He cares about +AF8-customers+AF8-, and Linux's |
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+AD4- +AD4- customers are RedHat, Suse, IBM, Intel, and the other HW |
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+AD4- +AD4- manufacturers. |
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+AD4- +AD4- RedHat customers don't use the console, therefore the console isn't |
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+AD4- +AD4- important. It's a bit like Microsoft's attitude towards users. |
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+AD4- +AD4- Sure, Linus went through the motions of pretending to try to find a |
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+AD4- +AD4- maintainer, but didn't put any serious effort into it. He argued |
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+AD4- +AD4- that |
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+AD4- +AD4- +ACI-nobody+ACI- uses it anyway, therefore it is unimportant, which is an |
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+AD4- +AD4- ironic |
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+AD4- +AD4- echo of the argument that nobody uses Linux on a desktop PC. |
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+AD4- +AD4- Even if the bugs came to be fixed, I doubt the scrolling would be |
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+AD4- +AD4- allowed |
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+AD4- +AD4- back into the kernel, for the above reasons. Exactly what the bugs |
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+AD4- +AD4- are |
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+AD4- +AD4- in the scrolling code wasn't gone into on the list, despite more |
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+AD4- +AD4- than one |
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+AD4- +AD4- contributor asking. |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- FWOW, if you really want backscrolling on the console, you can |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- get |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- that with screen, but doing so would drive me nuts, since I'd |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- have to |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- break all my fingers to stop them from typeing ctrl-A to move |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- the |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- start of a line. I've switched screen's meta-character a few |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- times, |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- but everytime I try that I find my fingers already have |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- something else |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- assigned to that control character (which I had forgotten |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- about). It |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- would be nice if I could print out my fingers' assignment table |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- to |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- find an unused control character, but that doesn't seem to be |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- how it |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- works. |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- Can one set up a +ACI-basic+ACI- screen which doesn't use a meta- |
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+AD4- +AD4- +AD4- character? |
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+AD4- +AD4- I don't know what I'll be doing, long term. For the moment, I'll |
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+AD4- +AD4- be |
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+AD4- +AD4- hanging onto the working kernel I've got, old though it may be |
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+AD4- +AD4- (4.19.97). |
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+AD4- +AD4- It might be possible (I'm not sure) to hook up a user space program |
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+AD4- +AD4- to |
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+AD4- +AD4- the keys +ADw-shift+AD4--+ADw-PageUp/Down+AD4- which would take care of the |
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+AD4- +AD4- scrolling. |
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+AD4- +AD4- This would obviously not work with early kernel messages, but would |
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+AD4- +AD4- be |
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+AD4- +AD4- better than nothing. I had a look at the GNU screen source code |
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+AD4- +AD4- yesterday to see how it managed such things, but it is very |
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+AD4- +AD4- sparsely |
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+AD4- +AD4- commented, and thus hard work to understand. |
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+AD4- +AD4- Maybe I should just cut my losses, and convert to using one of the |
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+AD4- +AD4- BSDs. |
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+AD4- |
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+AD4- 2000 posts per day on Linux kernel list would be more than |
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+AD4- unmanageable for me+ACE- I wouldn't say +ACI-almost+ACIAIQ- |
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+AD4- |
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+AD4- Is Linus Torvalds' removal of console scrolling the reason why Scroll |
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+AD4- Lock does not work on the console with System Rescue CD or USB, while |
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+AD4- with FreeBSD and NetBSD, I can press Scroll Lock and scroll back? |
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+AD4- |
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+AD4- I like that ability but don't think Linus Torvalds is listening or |
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+AD4- reading this. |
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+AD4- |
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+AD4- Further, with System Rescue console, the lines/text go only partway |
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+AD4- down. |
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+AD4- |
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+AD4- Using screen, now at v4.8, means having to remember a lot of key |
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+AD4- functions, you need a separate reference screen to look them up. |
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+AD4- |
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+AD4- There is also tmux, which is part of the base system in NetBSD but |
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+AD4- not FreeBSD. |
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+AD4- |
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+AD4- If Linus cared about his users, he could make the kernel headers more |
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+AD4- user-friendly, installing kernel headers should not be any more |
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+AD4- complicated than copying or downloading. |
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+AD4- |
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+AD4- Console scrolling is especially useful with an OS or distro that is |
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+AD4- built from the ground up, like Gentoo, Void or Arch, as opposed to |
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+AD4- being installed all at once. |
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+AD4- |
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+AD4- If more Linux users would go to and try NetBSD or FreeBSD, those OSes |
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+AD4- would have more users, more ideas, more ability to improve. |
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+AD4- |
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+AD4- You can even cross-compile NetBSD from Linux. You'd need NetBSD |
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+AD4- source tree, but don't have to do anything special to install kernel |
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+AD4- headers. |
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+AD4- |
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+AD4- Tom |
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+AD4- |
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+AD4- |
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You're getting this second-hand since it was my brother who actually |
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looked into it, so pardon anything I misremember, but the big problem |
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is that adding unicode support to vgacon would need a near total |
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rewrite, and nobody wants to do that since it's a terrible hackjob to |
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start with. |
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|
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kmscon is slated to be the replacement. You might want to see if that |
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can do what you need. |
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|
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LMP |