Gentoo Archives: gentoo-user

From: Laurence Perkins <lperkins@×××××××.net>
To: "gentoo-user@l.g.o" <gentoo-user@l.g.o>
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Console scrollback
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 17:09:13
Message-Id: 5b91facce60a6e491d843421316ccab78bdd2bee.camel@openeye.net
1 On Sun, 2021-01-17 at 05:17 +-0000, Thomas Mueller wrote:
2 +AD4- On Sat, 16 Jan 2021 12:01:48 +-0000, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
3 +AD4-
4 +AD4- +AD4- Hello, Gentoo.
5 +AD4- +AD4- On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 16:06:38 +-0000, Alan Mackenzie wrote:
6 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- On Wed, Jan 13, 2021 at 22:15:25 -0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
7 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- On 2021-01-13, Alan Mackenzie +ADw-acm+AEA-muc.de+AD4- wrote:
8 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- I think bringing up a new Gentoo system absolutely requires
9 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- working in
10 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- the console, certainly up to the point where X11 and a Window
11 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- Manager
12 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- have been installed and debugged.
13 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- I usually install Gentoo via ssh.
14 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- The article I read about the removal of Linux console's
15 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- backscrolling
16 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- feature said it was mostly due to lack of a maintainer for that
17 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- code,
18 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- and that if somebody stepped forward to maintain it, it could
19 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- be revived.
20 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- I'm doing my best to step forward, but I suspect that will be
21 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- almost as
22 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- difficult as fixing the bugs in it. +ADs--)
23 +AD4- +AD4- And so it transpired. I subscribed to the linux-kernel list for a
24 +AD4- +AD4- short
25 +AD4- +AD4- time, and offered my services in a post. Not one single reply did
26 +AD4- +AD4- I get.
27 +AD4- +AD4- That list is not a friendly one. It gets an almost unmanageable
28 +AD4- +AD4- +AH4-2000
29 +AD4- +AD4- posts a day, the vast bulk of which are patches, fragmented into,
30 +AD4- +AD4- perhaps, one diff hunk per post.
31 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- I'm disappointed that the decision to cut out this important
32 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- feature was
33 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- taken without any serious attempt to find a maintainer. I have
34 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- the
35 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- impression (though I may be wrong), that the problem was talked
36 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- about on
37 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- the linux kernel mailing list, but nobody there took it upon
38 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- himself to
39 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- post on any of the more hard-core distributions' mailing lists,
40 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- such as
41 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- gentoo's.
42 +AD4- +AD4- I've come to realise that Linus Torvalds, who personally took the
43 +AD4- +AD4- decision to remove the scrolling, doesn't care about users, and
44 +AD4- +AD4- indeed
45 +AD4- +AD4- regards them with disdain. He cares about +AF8-customers+AF8-, and Linux's
46 +AD4- +AD4- customers are RedHat, Suse, IBM, Intel, and the other HW
47 +AD4- +AD4- manufacturers.
48 +AD4- +AD4- RedHat customers don't use the console, therefore the console isn't
49 +AD4- +AD4- important. It's a bit like Microsoft's attitude towards users.
50 +AD4- +AD4- Sure, Linus went through the motions of pretending to try to find a
51 +AD4- +AD4- maintainer, but didn't put any serious effort into it. He argued
52 +AD4- +AD4- that
53 +AD4- +AD4- +ACI-nobody+ACI- uses it anyway, therefore it is unimportant, which is an
54 +AD4- +AD4- ironic
55 +AD4- +AD4- echo of the argument that nobody uses Linux on a desktop PC.
56 +AD4- +AD4- Even if the bugs came to be fixed, I doubt the scrolling would be
57 +AD4- +AD4- allowed
58 +AD4- +AD4- back into the kernel, for the above reasons. Exactly what the bugs
59 +AD4- +AD4- are
60 +AD4- +AD4- in the scrolling code wasn't gone into on the list, despite more
61 +AD4- +AD4- than one
62 +AD4- +AD4- contributor asking.
63 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- FWOW, if you really want backscrolling on the console, you can
64 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- get
65 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- that with screen, but doing so would drive me nuts, since I'd
66 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- have to
67 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- break all my fingers to stop them from typeing ctrl-A to move
68 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- the
69 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- start of a line. I've switched screen's meta-character a few
70 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- times,
71 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- but everytime I try that I find my fingers already have
72 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- something else
73 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- assigned to that control character (which I had forgotten
74 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- about). It
75 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- would be nice if I could print out my fingers' assignment table
76 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- to
77 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- find an unused control character, but that doesn't seem to be
78 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- how it
79 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- works.
80 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- Can one set up a +ACI-basic+ACI- screen which doesn't use a meta-
81 +AD4- +AD4- +AD4- character?
82 +AD4- +AD4- I don't know what I'll be doing, long term. For the moment, I'll
83 +AD4- +AD4- be
84 +AD4- +AD4- hanging onto the working kernel I've got, old though it may be
85 +AD4- +AD4- (4.19.97).
86 +AD4- +AD4- It might be possible (I'm not sure) to hook up a user space program
87 +AD4- +AD4- to
88 +AD4- +AD4- the keys +ADw-shift+AD4--+ADw-PageUp/Down+AD4- which would take care of the
89 +AD4- +AD4- scrolling.
90 +AD4- +AD4- This would obviously not work with early kernel messages, but would
91 +AD4- +AD4- be
92 +AD4- +AD4- better than nothing. I had a look at the GNU screen source code
93 +AD4- +AD4- yesterday to see how it managed such things, but it is very
94 +AD4- +AD4- sparsely
95 +AD4- +AD4- commented, and thus hard work to understand.
96 +AD4- +AD4- Maybe I should just cut my losses, and convert to using one of the
97 +AD4- +AD4- BSDs.
98 +AD4-
99 +AD4- 2000 posts per day on Linux kernel list would be more than
100 +AD4- unmanageable for me+ACE- I wouldn't say +ACI-almost+ACIAIQ-
101 +AD4-
102 +AD4- Is Linus Torvalds' removal of console scrolling the reason why Scroll
103 +AD4- Lock does not work on the console with System Rescue CD or USB, while
104 +AD4- with FreeBSD and NetBSD, I can press Scroll Lock and scroll back?
105 +AD4-
106 +AD4- I like that ability but don't think Linus Torvalds is listening or
107 +AD4- reading this.
108 +AD4-
109 +AD4- Further, with System Rescue console, the lines/text go only partway
110 +AD4- down.
111 +AD4-
112 +AD4- Using screen, now at v4.8, means having to remember a lot of key
113 +AD4- functions, you need a separate reference screen to look them up.
114 +AD4-
115 +AD4- There is also tmux, which is part of the base system in NetBSD but
116 +AD4- not FreeBSD.
117 +AD4-
118 +AD4- If Linus cared about his users, he could make the kernel headers more
119 +AD4- user-friendly, installing kernel headers should not be any more
120 +AD4- complicated than copying or downloading.
121 +AD4-
122 +AD4- Console scrolling is especially useful with an OS or distro that is
123 +AD4- built from the ground up, like Gentoo, Void or Arch, as opposed to
124 +AD4- being installed all at once.
125 +AD4-
126 +AD4- If more Linux users would go to and try NetBSD or FreeBSD, those OSes
127 +AD4- would have more users, more ideas, more ability to improve.
128 +AD4-
129 +AD4- You can even cross-compile NetBSD from Linux. You'd need NetBSD
130 +AD4- source tree, but don't have to do anything special to install kernel
131 +AD4- headers.
132 +AD4-
133 +AD4- Tom
134 +AD4-
135 +AD4-
136 You're getting this second-hand since it was my brother who actually
137 looked into it, so pardon anything I misremember, but the big problem
138 is that adding unicode support to vgacon would need a near total
139 rewrite, and nobody wants to do that since it's a terrible hackjob to
140 start with.
141
142 kmscon is slated to be the replacement. You might want to see if that
143 can do what you need.
144
145 LMP

Replies

Subject Author
Re: [gentoo-user] Console scrollback Alan Mackenzie <acm@×××.de>