Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo Council vs Umbrella Corp ?

[james]

On 8/28/20 1:20 PM, Dale wrote:
> Jack wrote:
>> On 8/28/20 12:33 PM, james wrote:
>>> On 8/27/20 10:11 PM, Dale wrote:
>>>> james wrote:
>>>>> Gentoo,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://blogs.gentoo.org/mgorny/2020/08/25/is-an-umbrella-organization-a-good-choice-for-gentoo/
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Surely some of the business/legal savvy folks want to "chime in" on
>>>>> Sir Gorny's proposal?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I just read this on 'hacker news'
>>>>>
>>>>> It just sounds like mostly a lack of fund raising to operate?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> James
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There's several issues that lead to this.� For ages, the financial
>>>> books were not kept up to date.� From what I recall, some
>>>> paperwork was lost which made it difficult to impossible to do the
>>>> needed IRS filings.� Things on that part seemed to snowball from
>>>> there.� In the past few years or so, that has been dealt with and
>>>> from what I've read, it is now up to date and they are trying to get
>>>> back in good standing with the IRS and other Govt entities.� I
>>>> think I read where most of the hard work as already been done, just
>>>> needs time to kick in.� It isn't hard to get into that situation,
>>>> it just takes one year with a mistake to trigger bad things.� It
>>>> takes a lot of work to get it cleared up tho.� All of us should be
>>>> grateful to the ones who put in the hard work to get that taken care
>>>> of.� I'm sure it took a lot of effort and time to get that
>>>> done.� I'm sure it was boring as heck to do as well.� Some of us
>>>> would likely have no hair left.
>>>>
>>>> Another issue, not many want to run the foundation.� The devs
>>>> mostly want to write code.� They aren't to much interested in
>>>> running the foundation part of it.� A few do because it is needed
>>>> and they do their best, some even go far beyond that, but they
>>>> really want to write code.� That's what developers came to Gentoo
>>>> for after all. Since there is two different bodies that run Gentoo
>>>> in different ways, it further reduces the number of people wanting
>>>> to do the job.� The foundation part is from my understanding,
>>>> bureaucratic paperwork.� Who wants to do that for free?� There's
>>>> not many. Basically, if you run for a position on the foundation,
>>>> it's good odds you get it because usually just enough run to fill
>>>> the open spots.� I often wonder, do they draw straws to pick
>>>> people to run just so things keep chugging along??� LOL
>>>>
>>>> Then there is the costs.� It costs to deal with all the paperwork
>>>> and filings.� There's state filings as well as federal.� Missing
>>>> either of those can cause trouble for the other and also get
>>>> expensive and time consuming to correct.� Again, very few want to
>>>> deal with it.� The few that do likely do it because Gentoo needs
>>>> it not because they are jumping up and down wanting to do it.�
>>>> It's what keeps Gentoo going. It's cheaper to join some other group
>>>> like has been talked about for years and let them take a percentage
>>>> of the money and them as professionals handle all that nasty
>>>> paperwork and filings.
>>>>
>>>> My personal opinion.� I'm still leaning to keep Gentoo as it is
>>>> but I'm not the one doing all the boring work either.� My concern,
>>>> Gentoo joins some group and it ends badly for Gentoo.� Maybe they
>>>> screw up something and that puts Gentoo and maybe everyone else in
>>>> the group in jeopardy with govt entities or lawsuits.� On the
>>>> other hand, if Gentoo doesn't have the right people, they could do
>>>> the same thing to themselves.� The people who do run for those
>>>> seats do try their best even if something goes wrong.� Thing is,
>>>> it doesn't take much to run afoul of govt entities or trigger a
>>>> lawsuit. Gentoo has been lucky in that regard.� There is no easy
>>>> answer to this.� Either way has advantages.� Same can be said
>>>> for disadvantages as well.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure there is more that isn't known to the public and I'm sure
>>>> some things are escaping my mind at the moment.� Either way,
>>>> whatever keeps Gentoo going and successful, that is what needs to be
>>>> done.� Since I don't have a crystal ball, I'm not sure which is
>>>> best long term.
>>>>
>>>> Now someone add more to this.� ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Dale
>>>>
>>>> :-)� :-)
>>>
>>> The referenced article says this:
>>>
>>> "Right now we�re already relying on a CPA to handle our filings.
>>> For a commercial company (we are one now), the cost is $1500 a year."
>>>
>>> Seems way too high. I pay $500/yr for a C corp here in Florida; a
>>> firm that that is "outstanding" with the US IRS.
>>>
>>>
>>> "If we wanted to go for proper non-profit, the estimated cost is
>>> between $2000 and $3000 a year."
>>>
>>>
>>> Still seems way to high. With Gentoo, we can use Any state, so why
>>> not move the home to a low cost state?
>>>
>>> Many corps use Delaware, just for that reason.
>> I think most of those listed numbers are not just the official filing
>> fees, but include paying a CPA to do the filings.� While certified CPA
>> is not required to do any of those filings, I suspect it is now that
>> way because historically, the volunteer who was supposed to do it
>> didn't.� Paying someone does seem excessively expensive, but you know
>> it will get done, and if not, you have some legal recourse.
>>>
>>>
>>> "If we were to pass full accounting to an external company, the rough
>>> estimate I�ve been given by Trustees is $2400. So once our
>>> volunteer bookkeeper retires, we�re talking of around $4000 +
>>> larger taxes for a corporation, or $4500 to $5500 + very little taxes
>>> for a non-profit."
>>>
>>>
>>> Again, these numbers are WAY TOO HIGH. Shop around!
>>> Many states are way less expensive.
>> Again, I think those numbers are to pay someone to handle the filings,
>> not just the fees.� I don't suppose it really changes much about the
>> discussion.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ok so ask why don't I volunteer? I've been using gentoo, since 2002.
>>> I have made many enemies, because of my views on the whole "install"
>>> abortion. WE could easily help another loosely coupled, gentoo
>>> derivative distro
>>> create a robust, easy install system, whilst leaving "Gentoo Proper"
>>> as an enclave for the brilliant.
>>>
>>> It there were agreement to that sort "diatribe", enthusiastically,
>>> THEN I could help the trustee situation, and help bring in lots of
>>> cash to pay devs for what every reason the technical leaders decide.
>>>
>>> CoreOS, gentoo-install (Mike Mol), CloverOS, and dozens and dozens
>>> (over the years) have solved this problem, bot did not receive any
>>> love or praise from the Gentoo devs......
>>>
>>>
>>> So, if Gentoo wants money, as a charity, it is so simple, it hurts.
>>> BUT a few things have to change (non-negotiable)!
>>>
>>>
>>> I've done this too many times with dozens of folks. ALL are
>>> multi-millionaires. MONEY is easy, but it does come with strings
>>> (actually very few for something like gentoo).� The current situation
>>> is pathetic and easy to fix. Be warned, when it comes to money, and I
>>> am on the responsibility chain, I tend to be a bit dictatorial. Once
>>> the money starts flowing in, I'd look to hand things off to a much
>>> younger techie, so he(she) can build there resume and I can drift
>>> back into oblivion,
>>> in a cabin, in the woods.......
>>>
>>>
>>> For me, it just breaks my heart to see Gentoo needed to have one of
>>> our (currently) awesome coders have to "prostrate" himself publicly
>>> like this. But, if a broken system/leadership is broken, then that is
>>> the sign things need to change. This has been a recurring situation,
>>> for 2 decades now. Just look around, most other distros have so much
>>> 'action' going on, they are rolling in cabbage.
>>>
>>> Perhaps the Gentoo council members ought to engage the gentoo-user
>>> list, directly? Surely others would have solution, very viable, to
>>> what I have proposed?
>>>
>>> The second thing I'd do, if on the council, is have a direct program
>>> for High School age kids to use Gentoo to become entrepreneurs.
>>> That's right, how to form a C-corp, write some codes and start
>>> receiving funds directly into their C-corp. Minimum goal? Self
>>> Funding for Secondary education. Learn Business via gentoo, and
>>> coding "from the masters" aka gentoo devs.
>>>
>>> There are tons of methods for young entrepreneurs to access funding
>>> and grants, if you "get your house in order". For that, it means a
>>> simple Rasp. Pi. 4 sourcecode install? The microprocessor companies
>>> would line up to build boards, for these kids. EASY as PIE!
>>>
>>> Be Bold and Be Bad_ass, if you want to live and prosper in this day
>>> and age.
>>>
>>>
>>> painfully,
>>> James
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> I agree there is likely more done with those fees than just filing
> paperwork.� I've read there is a CPA involved and I recall lawyer being
> mentioned a few times too.

CPAs are a dime a dozen, if you know where to look. I have a board 
certified, Lawyer+CPA that does my hi end stuff for free. But I give him 
much more in the way of technology and engineering skills. He is filthy 
rich, owns an island in the Carribean and travels the world.

Surely Calif. and Texas and Delaware are full of such masters of law, 
taxes and charities....


  > Another thing, some devs aren't even in the
> USA.� I'm sure any expenses related to things they do are more
> complicated to file.

Wrong. The get a credit card and put expenses on that, that benefit a US 
charity; 100% tax deductible,  if the expenditure "benefits or is 
essential" to the charity. It's call "case law". Any CPA, with a lawyer 
in good standing in the US, knows all about this. Gentoo is FAMOUS, 
globally. USE IT! WE can get a real bad has to handle gentoo, legally 
and financially. But, surely there will be new rules, some do not like. 
TOUGH.




  > Since the GSoC thing is almost always
> international, I'm sure it requires more detailed tracking and time to
> compile the info.� Given that air traffic, read that as mail services,
> between the USA and other countries is shutdown due to the bug, that may
> complicate things even more.
>
> I think the person who is handling things now might could do the
> paperwork and filing BUT it takes time.


Dude. It's call "gnucash". Those that act as or get paid or spend Gentoo 
funds, input the data, the same day, into a Gentoo-GNUcash system. At 
tax time, it takes an accountant, minutes to generate a tax return. 
Initiation and use overseas accounting, accounts and such is a reciepe 
for an audit. DONT DO THAT!>   = DIRT SIMPLE.
Done it for decades. You want to please the IRS?
Dont do business with China. DIRT SIMPLE.


> I think they spent most of
> their time trying to fix history not more recent things.

That is done, move on.


> From the sound
> of it, getting back in to the good graces of the IRS was a difficult and
> time consuming ordeal.


That's because they used THE WRONG LAWYER!

  > Let's keep in mind, that person as far as I know
> is not paid.

Fix the broken/archane install, and we'll have plenty of cash to utilize.


> They spend time on it as they can just like devs do with
> code.� If they have a bad week at work, that could mean nothing Gentoo
> gets done that week.� After all, real life has to be looked after first.

Timely entries into a Gentoo-gnucash system fixes all of that, 
instantaneously. NO EXCEPTIONS.
>
> As to forking, its been done before.� As a general rule, someone thinks
> they have a much better plan so off they go.� Most don't make it long
> and so far, I don't think any of the survivors have come close to the
> success of Gentoo itself.� I've never really seen the sense in forking
> as long as Gentoo is still working and serving a persons need.

EASE of installation mean more members means more spending money to make 
the distro, great again.

>
> Sort of waiting for Rich to chime in here.� He likely knows more of what
> is going on plus may remember things better than me.� ;-)

I have a history of pissing off folks with the truth. The truth is 
thousands of corporations have made billions of dollars with gentoo. The 
retarted installation system is just a filter from millions of other, 
with less money, to build a functionally, awesome development project. 
GREED.
>
> Dale
>
> :-)� :-)

Dale, my strong response to you, is not a personal attack or in any way 
negative. I appreciate your contributions to gentoo.

But when one of our technical leaders, mgorny, who is totally awesome, 
has to prostrate himself publicly on "Hacker News" it is time for a 
drastic change, financially. If others have that fix, please step 
forward. The fact that nobody wants to volunteer for the Gentoo coucils, 
translates into this distro is in trouble.

So here is a little further detail on what I propose. Each of the Gentoo 
council members nees to be responsible, individually, for bringing in 
funds to Gentoo. The funds they each bring in, are under singular 
authority to spend, to the benefit of the Gentoo distribution.

Half of those funds, raise by that council member, go directly to the 
technies to decide how to spend (a budget).

The other half are directly managed by that council member; to be spent 
as he/she sees fit. The US IRS has rules, standards and plethora of 
documents delineating the details of what can and what cannot be spent 
however.

A council member, from say England, could manage how 1/2 of what they 
raise is spent. It could even "english centric" but must comply with USA 
IRS standards. Our council could be expanded to many members, from other 
countries, with a centic goal of spending Gentoo funds
(1/2 of what they raise) in any country they choose subject to USA tax 
standards). Realize many churches in the USA (501-c) do just that. WHY 
the USA? I'm glad you asked. Charities, in good standing with the USA 
IRS, can pretty much articulate GLOBALLY, without fear. Most foreign 
government, imho, have less standing in the world. It cottified as TAX 
TREATIES and most governments of the world have with with the USA IRS. 
It's the gold standard for global finance.  England use to be pretty 
close to bad-ass, but the whole EU clusterF put quite a tarnish, 
interantionally of the English banking system.
YMMV.


DIRT simple to fix. James is going to focus on the USA,
and getting thousands of high school kids into a corporation, being a 
Gentoo dev; and MAKING MONEY THEY CONTROL.

Without the council AND the Gentoo devs signing of on a program like 
this; at 100% my costs, then I'm not interested in active participation.

Dale, you are deeply appreciated. If other technical moguls disagree, 
let them for Geetoo-whatever, in another country, gentoo-china(?) and 
run their own charity according to those rules.

Truly, there is no other globally recognized tax system
like the USA-IRS (bad ass && world class open). That's why in times of 
trouble, entrepreneurs world wide flock to the "dollar". Also, being in 
elite standing with the USA-IRS opens many door doors to enhance and 
promote and deploy GENTOO globally.


sincerely,
James Horton, PE
(actually in good standing)