Gentoo Archives: gentoo-user

From: wireless@×××××××××××.com
To: gentoo-user@l.g.o
Subject: Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo's future directtion ?
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2014 21:34:29
1 On 11/21/14 14:00, Paige Thompson wrote:
2 >
3 > On 11/21/14 18:14, Rich Freeman wrote:
4 >> On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:34 PM, James <wireless@×××××××××××.com> wrote:
5 >>> Here's one, very, very interesting proposals, under
6 >>> serious consideration:
7 >>>
8 >>>
9 >>>
10 >>>
11 >>> I'd be curious what the fine and wonderful folks at
12 >>> gentoo_user think of this proposal. Old farts are
13 >>> welcome to comment, even encourage to "constructively rant"....
14 >> Honestly, I think it is a bit optimistic, though something I'd love to
15 >> see. I'm more of a fan of getting the new working before dismantling
16 >> the old, and I'm not keen on proposals that start out with gutting
17 >> what we already have before there is anything new to replace it.
18 >> Burning bridges usually isn't wise.
19 >>
20 >> The optimistic bit is that the proposal is that the only part of
21 >> Gentoo that would actually be developed centrally are the parts that
22 >> almost nobody is working on today. That basically amounts to just
23 >> having all the developers quit, and hoping that they all move on to
24 >> work on overlays instead of moving on to something else.
26 Interesting perspective that I had not considered... still, I think
27 there is more at play here. It sounds as if a few "chosen" old guard
28 are going to kick out more of the progressive and newer devs
29 so that these few. control the core distro. That way they can agree
30 and do what they want.
33 >> There are a lot of technical challenges in such an approach -
34 >> supporting overlays isn't all that unlike trying to provide kernel
35 >> internal API stability. I think it could be done better, but it would
36 >> be a big change. IMHO it makes far more sense to make those changes
37 >> and use them for our own internal benefit in the main repository, and
38 >> THEN think about whether the main repository is still needed.
40 Agreeded. In fact if one reads the threads on gentoo-dev that lead to
41 this document, one get's a bit more of the picture that is going to be
42 a very large undertaking, and many, more robust tools will need to be
43 developed, to support this (2 tier) system proposal. aka, actually
44 until gentoo current is mature and stablized, it's a very, very bad
45 idea, imho.
47 >>
48 >> --
49 >> Rich
50 >>
51 > With regards to distributed gentoo;
52 >
53 > to me this sounds like gentoo already. Overlays / layman repositories. I
54 > even have my own overlay that is listed publicly for anybody to add:
55 >
57 On the surface, yes. The way it will work out, no; hell no. There will
58 be no new devs moving into the core, unless the "few" bless them and
59 they will be clones of the existing dev mentalities that have been the
60 source of gentoo limitations, imho. The question is this: Is gentoo
61 a "boys club" or an open source evolving/morphing/multi-faceted
62 jaugernaut we all know and love. This porposal has good intentions,
63 but is "barking up the wrong tree".
66 > Which goes to say, the obvious should be assumed since anybody can have
67 > their own publicly listed overlay, you should know what's in it before
68 > you add it--it's a fairly autonomous system but you have to ask to get
69 > publicly to get your repo publicly list and If it were any easier, it
70 > would probably get abused.
72 True, very true, but trivial in the deeper context of who and how the
73 future of gentoo is steered, imho. i.e. what you are pointing out merely
74 today's noise.
77 > Technically you can even use git to manage your entire / filesystem if
78 > you want but it would be more productive to write your .gitignore to
79 > ignore all, then conditionally "un-ignore" things that need to be
80 > tracked thereafter. I did this but only for /etc because I've gotten
81 > tired of hunting down HOWTOs and more often than not a simple example is
82 > more than what I need to get stuff done:
83 >
84 >
85 >
86 > Honestly though I kinda wish I had done this from the top most
87 > directory, there are things here and there outside of /etc that I'd like
88 > to keep for reference or whatever reason.
90 More truth, but it misses what is really at play here.
93 > You can pretty much do whatever you want with gentoo, its up to you to
94 > decide whether or not to.
96 TRUE, but it becomes a power struggle, just like what is occurring
97 presently with openrc vs systemd.
99 Take the JAVA example. Java a core, fundamental technology in many linux
100 distros, Android probably being the most visiable (my def of linux
101 is if you use the linux kernel, it's linux, forget everthing else), ymmv.
103 Java over the years has never risen to the level of respect and support
104 it deserves in gentoo, because of a few core gentoo_master that hate
105 Java. I hate oracle too, but not java. Please do not think what I'm
106 about to say about gentoo or Java, is in any way a slight against those
107 devs that support java or any other gentoo dev. It's just a common
108 prejudice (lack of respect) against java for a very wide variety of
109 reasons. So if a motivated group, comes together, we fix up java and
110 create many, many tool and packages that are wonderful, powerful and
111 popular with a very wide variety of linux users, then gentoo will
112 explode and the Java team will be the most visually powerful group of
113 devs to the masses of gentoo users. (surely under current gentoo
114 circumstances a slim prospect but very viable, imho).
117 The 'good old boys club' now being demoted to "second base", in the eyes
118 of the new gentoo users, are very unhappy. If you look at what
119 innovating on the net, JAVA is king, imho; Python is strong, but a
120 distant second. Haskell and Scala are the future of linux greatness, but
121 they have a ways to go. Java bridges to both Scala and
122 Haskel very, very visibly, imho.
125 So again, booting out all the new/lesser/younger devs from the core (of
126 gentoo) and making them second class (user) citizens is all a power
127 struggle ploy, being pitched as elevating overlays and the gentoo
128 citizen. Why should their work not be included into the core? Why
129 should Java (OpenJDK and Icedtea and such) be given a path to the core,
130 if not becoming a critical language to the core of gentoo?
131 (philisopically not presently) It is a "wolf in sheep's clothing". It is
132 the very poorest of ideas. I think we need 800 or 1,000 active gentoo
133 devs all competing for the the title of council elder or "grand poubah"
134 to make gentoo stronger and more attractive to the masses. I think one
135 day that python will be replace by another "better" language. I think
136 the core power_brokers do not like that possibility because they become,
137 second class devs and that they *might* be treated like they treat other
138 newer devs now.
141 What happens if one of the new brilliant mathematical/physics minds,
142 with deep admin experiences comes to gentoo and starts using haskel and
143 scala codes and sets the linux world on fire with innovation? Will that
144 person find a warm and cozy home at Gentoo? (ok quite down the
145 laughter). In 1990 I strated one of the first ISP in America. I
146 convinced SURAnet (who was the internet in 1990) to allow us to connect
147 to to MAE-EAST and sell TCP/IP connections to the general population.
148 First one to do it in American and probable in the world. It was only
149 possible, because we recruited a young mathematican out of England to
150 write the code. Many were farting around with ppp over serial links,
151 but this was the first stack that work reliable and was to become open
152 sources. (I do not want to "get into it" as many old farts have their
153 own perspective and I have zero desire to argue or elaborate). And no
154 we did not get rich. cheated is more likely the single word for "the
155 rest of the story." I merely point out this industry changing event, so
156 that you realize *ONE* mathematician can change the world. Forget
157 computer science, forget admins. Forget loosers like LINEART. Math is
158 and always shall be king, imho.
160 Would the gentoo elders make room for such a person, if the core is
161 controlled by the few? doubtless. One of the groups being moved to the
162 "Overlay fringe" is science/math. Clever, will robinson, clever,
163 deceitful and stupid all in one proposal. Wonder where Java ends up?
164 "out of the core" is my guess.
166 In fact I'd go so far as to say that "term limits" on the council is a
167 better starting point than enshrining the current few, imho. Please
168 understand, I'm a huge fan a few of the council members; but power
169 corrupts your vision and absolute power will certainly corrupt your
170 database that you draw conclusions from.
173 I sure hope I am wrong, but, then again, I do love a good conspiracy
174 theory? Am I a troll? Nope, I'm older, experience and have seen shit
175 you would not believe. I first proposed carbon sequestration as a young
176 engineer in the 1980 at Prudoe Bay Alaska. I use to sit in a pickup
177 truck and watch dozens of Jet engines put massive amounts of CO2 into
178 the air. May particular resposibility was to ensure that those dozens
179 of "gas injection wells" did not experience a loss in integrity, cause
180 the massive explosion would set Prudohe Bay on fire; necessitating that
181 the 2.2 millions barrels of oil we were producing a day, would have to
182 be "shut down for repairs". Surely that would have made headlines,
183 worldwide. I proposed for my graduate work to capture the turbine
184 emissions (primarily CO2) and inject them into those gas injections
185 well. Carbon sequestration was not even an issue at the time. CO2 was
186 and is the best source of "surfactant flooding" to enhance oil recovery.
187 I also propose to been the massive energy creation up to a satelitte
188 system, run by the military and use a diffuse beam to bounce the energy
189 down to chicago for usage. Funny, my professor thought that a bad idea
190 and wanted me to work with them on converting natural gas into methanol,
191 so it could be pumped with the crude oil to the Alaskan pipleline and to
192 market. Today, still there are laws to prevent methane being converted
193 to methanol; but is is ok to convert corn and other food sources to
194 methanol or ethanol.
196 I *was* a young math wize. Now, I'm mostly apathetic, but, I can sniff
197 out pooh with the best of them and this idea is *pooh*, at best, imho.
200 apologies well in advance of any pain anyone feels,
201 But, I have been using Gentoo, since early 2004,
204 thoughts?
205 James


Subject Author
Re: [gentoo-user] Gentoo's future directtion ? Rich Freeman <rich0@g.o>