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On 11/21/14 14:00, Paige Thompson wrote: |
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> |
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> On 11/21/14 18:14, Rich Freeman wrote: |
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>> On Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 12:34 PM, James <wireless@×××××××××××.com> wrote: |
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>>> Here's one, very, very interesting proposals, under |
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>>> serious consideration: |
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>>> |
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>>> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Distributed_Gentoo |
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>>> |
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>>> |
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>>> I'd be curious what the fine and wonderful folks at |
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>>> gentoo_user think of this proposal. Old farts are |
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>>> welcome to comment, even encourage to "constructively rant".... |
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>> Honestly, I think it is a bit optimistic, though something I'd love to |
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>> see. I'm more of a fan of getting the new working before dismantling |
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>> the old, and I'm not keen on proposals that start out with gutting |
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>> what we already have before there is anything new to replace it. |
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>> Burning bridges usually isn't wise. |
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>> |
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>> The optimistic bit is that the proposal is that the only part of |
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>> Gentoo that would actually be developed centrally are the parts that |
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>> almost nobody is working on today. That basically amounts to just |
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>> having all the developers quit, and hoping that they all move on to |
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>> work on overlays instead of moving on to something else. |
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|
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Interesting perspective that I had not considered... still, I think |
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there is more at play here. It sounds as if a few "chosen" old guard |
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are going to kick out more of the progressive and newer devs |
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so that these few. control the core distro. That way they can agree |
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and do what they want. |
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>> There are a lot of technical challenges in such an approach - |
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>> supporting overlays isn't all that unlike trying to provide kernel |
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>> internal API stability. I think it could be done better, but it would |
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>> be a big change. IMHO it makes far more sense to make those changes |
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>> and use them for our own internal benefit in the main repository, and |
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>> THEN think about whether the main repository is still needed. |
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Agreeded. In fact if one reads the threads on gentoo-dev that lead to |
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this document, one get's a bit more of the picture that is going to be |
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a very large undertaking, and many, more robust tools will need to be |
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developed, to support this (2 tier) system proposal. aka, actually |
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until gentoo current is mature and stablized, it's a very, very bad |
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idea, imho. |
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|
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>> |
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>> -- |
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>> Rich |
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>> |
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> With regards to distributed gentoo; |
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> |
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> to me this sounds like gentoo already. Overlays / layman repositories. I |
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> even have my own overlay that is listed publicly for anybody to add: |
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> https://github.com/paigeadele/netcrave |
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On the surface, yes. The way it will work out, no; hell no. There will |
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be no new devs moving into the core, unless the "few" bless them and |
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they will be clones of the existing dev mentalities that have been the |
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source of gentoo limitations, imho. The question is this: Is gentoo |
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a "boys club" or an open source evolving/morphing/multi-faceted |
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jaugernaut we all know and love. This porposal has good intentions, |
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but is "barking up the wrong tree". |
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> Which goes to say, the obvious should be assumed since anybody can have |
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> their own publicly listed overlay, you should know what's in it before |
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> you add it--it's a fairly autonomous system but you have to ask to get |
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> publicly to get your repo publicly list and If it were any easier, it |
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> would probably get abused. |
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True, very true, but trivial in the deeper context of who and how the |
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future of gentoo is steered, imho. i.e. what you are pointing out merely |
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today's noise. |
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> Technically you can even use git to manage your entire / filesystem if |
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> you want but it would be more productive to write your .gitignore to |
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> ignore all, then conditionally "un-ignore" things that need to be |
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> tracked thereafter. I did this but only for /etc because I've gotten |
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> tired of hunting down HOWTOs and more often than not a simple example is |
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> more than what I need to get stuff done: |
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> |
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> https://github.com/paigeadele/laptop.paigeat.info_etc/blob/master/.gitignore |
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> |
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> Honestly though I kinda wish I had done this from the top most |
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> directory, there are things here and there outside of /etc that I'd like |
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> to keep for reference or whatever reason. |
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More truth, but it misses what is really at play here. |
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> You can pretty much do whatever you want with gentoo, its up to you to |
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> decide whether or not to. |
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TRUE, but it becomes a power struggle, just like what is occurring |
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presently with openrc vs systemd. |
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|
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Take the JAVA example. Java a core, fundamental technology in many linux |
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distros, Android probably being the most visiable (my def of linux |
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is if you use the linux kernel, it's linux, forget everthing else), ymmv. |
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Java over the years has never risen to the level of respect and support |
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it deserves in gentoo, because of a few core gentoo_master that hate |
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Java. I hate oracle too, but not java. Please do not think what I'm |
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about to say about gentoo or Java, is in any way a slight against those |
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devs that support java or any other gentoo dev. It's just a common |
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prejudice (lack of respect) against java for a very wide variety of |
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reasons. So if a motivated group, comes together, we fix up java and |
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create many, many tool and packages that are wonderful, powerful and |
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popular with a very wide variety of linux users, then gentoo will |
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explode and the Java team will be the most visually powerful group of |
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devs to the masses of gentoo users. (surely under current gentoo |
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circumstances a slim prospect but very viable, imho). |
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The 'good old boys club' now being demoted to "second base", in the eyes |
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of the new gentoo users, are very unhappy. If you look at what |
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innovating on the net, JAVA is king, imho; Python is strong, but a |
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distant second. Haskell and Scala are the future of linux greatness, but |
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they have a ways to go. Java bridges to both Scala and |
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Haskel very, very visibly, imho. |
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So again, booting out all the new/lesser/younger devs from the core (of |
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gentoo) and making them second class (user) citizens is all a power |
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struggle ploy, being pitched as elevating overlays and the gentoo |
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citizen. Why should their work not be included into the core? Why |
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should Java (OpenJDK and Icedtea and such) be given a path to the core, |
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if not becoming a critical language to the core of gentoo? |
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(philisopically not presently) It is a "wolf in sheep's clothing". It is |
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the very poorest of ideas. I think we need 800 or 1,000 active gentoo |
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devs all competing for the the title of council elder or "grand poubah" |
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to make gentoo stronger and more attractive to the masses. I think one |
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day that python will be replace by another "better" language. I think |
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the core power_brokers do not like that possibility because they become, |
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second class devs and that they *might* be treated like they treat other |
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newer devs now. |
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What happens if one of the new brilliant mathematical/physics minds, |
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with deep admin experiences comes to gentoo and starts using haskel and |
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scala codes and sets the linux world on fire with innovation? Will that |
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person find a warm and cozy home at Gentoo? (ok quite down the |
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laughter). In 1990 I strated one of the first ISP in America. I |
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convinced SURAnet (who was the internet in 1990) to allow us to connect |
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to to MAE-EAST and sell TCP/IP connections to the general population. |
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First one to do it in American and probable in the world. It was only |
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possible, because we recruited a young mathematican out of England to |
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write the code. Many were farting around with ppp over serial links, |
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but this was the first stack that work reliable and was to become open |
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sources. (I do not want to "get into it" as many old farts have their |
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own perspective and I have zero desire to argue or elaborate). And no |
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we did not get rich. cheated is more likely the single word for "the |
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rest of the story." I merely point out this industry changing event, so |
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that you realize *ONE* mathematician can change the world. Forget |
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computer science, forget admins. Forget loosers like LINEART. Math is |
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and always shall be king, imho. |
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Would the gentoo elders make room for such a person, if the core is |
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controlled by the few? doubtless. One of the groups being moved to the |
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"Overlay fringe" is science/math. Clever, will robinson, clever, |
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deceitful and stupid all in one proposal. Wonder where Java ends up? |
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"out of the core" is my guess. |
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In fact I'd go so far as to say that "term limits" on the council is a |
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better starting point than enshrining the current few, imho. Please |
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understand, I'm a huge fan a few of the council members; but power |
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corrupts your vision and absolute power will certainly corrupt your |
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database that you draw conclusions from. |
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I sure hope I am wrong, but, then again, I do love a good conspiracy |
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theory? Am I a troll? Nope, I'm older, experience and have seen shit |
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you would not believe. I first proposed carbon sequestration as a young |
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engineer in the 1980 at Prudoe Bay Alaska. I use to sit in a pickup |
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truck and watch dozens of Jet engines put massive amounts of CO2 into |
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the air. May particular resposibility was to ensure that those dozens |
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of "gas injection wells" did not experience a loss in integrity, cause |
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the massive explosion would set Prudohe Bay on fire; necessitating that |
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the 2.2 millions barrels of oil we were producing a day, would have to |
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be "shut down for repairs". Surely that would have made headlines, |
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worldwide. I proposed for my graduate work to capture the turbine |
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emissions (primarily CO2) and inject them into those gas injections |
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well. Carbon sequestration was not even an issue at the time. CO2 was |
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and is the best source of "surfactant flooding" to enhance oil recovery. |
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I also propose to been the massive energy creation up to a satelitte |
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system, run by the military and use a diffuse beam to bounce the energy |
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down to chicago for usage. Funny, my professor thought that a bad idea |
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and wanted me to work with them on converting natural gas into methanol, |
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so it could be pumped with the crude oil to the Alaskan pipleline and to |
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market. Today, still there are laws to prevent methane being converted |
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to methanol; but is is ok to convert corn and other food sources to |
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methanol or ethanol. |
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I *was* a young math wize. Now, I'm mostly apathetic, but, I can sniff |
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out pooh with the best of them and this idea is *pooh*, at best, imho. |
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apologies well in advance of any pain anyone feels, |
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But, I have been using Gentoo, since early 2004, |
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thoughts? |
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James |