Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Slightly OT but interesting nonetheless...

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am Mittwoch 28 September 2011, 14:44:06 schrieb James:
> Volker Armin Hemmann <volkerarmin <at> googlemail.com> writes:
> > > >  Breaking the user experience in order to ???fix??? something
> > > >  is a totally broken concept; you cannot do it.
> > >
> > > That's hilarious.
> > >
> > > The Linux developers are _constantly_ changing APIs in ways that
> > > break
> > > existing device driver code.  There are repeatedly wholesale
> > > re-designs of some APIs that happen between minor versions of a
> > > supposedly "stable" kernel.
> >
> > which is seriously not a problem and does not matter in the slightest.
>
> Some perspective may ease the pain here. Folks on this list are focused
> on *their personal pain*. Welcome to unix/bsd/linux. (too many decades now)
> No pain, no gain. Gui experiences are what consumers see, feel and purchase;
> so Volker is very right here.
>
> The kernel gyrations are all really about something much more important.
> *MONEY*

well, if you make money with linux, their are many choices for you. Nobody 
forces you to target the latest kernel. You can always go with one of the many 
stable releases out there. Look them up.

>
> Just think about it, on this list in the last few months, we have discussed
> how the stock market runs on linux, Some folks use GPU + CPU for very
> advanced things, Commercial distros like Apple's offering are making
> billions. Android. (on and on). The point is the Linux Kernel is
> the battle ground for software deployment, particularly firmware.
> An infinite number of "user experiences"
> can be packaged and sold on top of the Linux kernel.

so what? what does this have to do with linux changing internal apis that are 
not supposed to be public? (hint: nothing)

>
> Here's another one: Carrier Grade Linux (runs most of the worlds
> communications systems, including most carrier grade cisco gear. Most
> legacy comm system at some point now, get boosted on top of private IP
> networks run by the carriers (or military). Cisco recommends embedded linux
> on their carrier switches and IOS is an unmanaged *hacked* pig, with little
> future.

see above

>
>
> The "gymnastics" about the kernel and drivers are the public manifestation
> of a much deeper battle for embedded systems supremacy using linux. Wind
> River, unquestionable the largest commercial offering of embedded solutions
> has products based on both bsd and linux kernels. In "ka-hoots" with chip
> vendors they routinely offer "enhanced" drivers to companies that build
> products, with features never to found in the linux published sources.
> Binaries are available and yet clearly violate the spirit of the whole
> (whore) open source movement. WHY? *MONEY*. Governments and miltaries also
> feed at this trough. Linus would have his tits
> slapped together, if he every interfered with these industries.
> He in only in charge of the gyrations....
>

tell that yourself to make you happy. 

> Tons of products still use embedded linux for the 2.4 kernel series.

and there are even products with 2.2 kernels. What does that prove? Nothing?


> Companies build very large data base systems, using the latest technologies
> that work with the linux kernel. Often these technologies only appear
> for the masses, years after companies use a "in house" version as
> the key pillar for commercial success (MONEY).

and again, what does that have to do with internal api changes?

>
> Take for example the company that does backups for one of the worlds largest
> and most complicated database needs. The good old US ARMY.
> They use linux, the latest open source databases and the newest
> file systems like CEPHS, yet they are years away from public consumption.
> Well financed companies are buying up the young (phd) experts whom
> have hack out versions and code that makes CEPH usable. Billions of dollars
> are being made and it's a real threat to Oracle. Customizations
> of low level drivers in the latest linux kernel are the key, and
> much of that work will not even be introduced to the linux kernel
> community..........TOO MUCH MONEY AT STAKE!

see above.

>
> (and you wonder why Oracle hates linux?)

yeah, they really must hate linux. One of the first databases running on it, 
sponsoring btrfs etc pp. That is hate. 

>
> What amazes me if that we get any real progress on the kernel at all.

not me. Because keeping internal apis backwards compatible for some out-of-
tree code is a sure way to go down the drain.


> > They NEVER change user-space APIs and ABIs in incompatible ways. THAT is
> > important.
> >
> > > We have to touch our NetBSD and FreeBSD drivers maybe once every 3-4
> > > years.
> >
> > and look how much devices they drive - because nobody has to send their
> > drivers upstream, nobody does.
>
> Because embedded BSD, although still viable, does not have mindshare
> any more. Most do not care. The battle it to spin your version
> of embedded linux, and sell it to the product manufacturers.

and thanks to that mindset BSDs are pretty much stagnant. Think about it..

>
> > > Often our Linux drivers have to be updated every 3-4 _months_
> > > to keep up with changes in the kernel that break things.
> >
> > which is your own fucking fault.
> > Get your drivers into the kernel. Problem solved.
>
> Volker is right, again. However, this is where the true
> fun begins, particularly when an innovative startup
> looks to gain market share in an area where other
> have made lots of money. Many drivers, not thought
> to be strategic, have little issue. Some vendors,
> Motorola comes to mind, put one driver into the kernel
> and offer another quietly through vendors or
> directly. Many Chipsets have always had "secret hardware features"
> and the ability to use those features is still a well guarded
> secret and costs tons of money and is often limited to
> who can use those chipsets. There are some NDA, if you
> violate, your ass is dead.
>
> Linus a "showboat" and making some serious cash, keeping
> the public focused on linux (mindshare) and playing
> as puppet as the big boys joust behind the scenes.

question: do you think the moon landings were fake too?

> From a
> modeling point of view, the gyrations of the linux kernel,
> chipset's hidden features and the device driver delusions
> are very much akin to what is going on in the hacker
> (interloper) world. The hilarious twist is the kernel
> game is controlled by globalist. Hacking is everybody's
> economic playground.
>
> Why Greg even offers to develop drivers free for folks,
> yet hardly any corporations take him up on this generous
> offer?

because they are scared for their precious 'ip' not realizing that most of it 
is well known by their competition anyway.

>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Kroah-Hartman
> http://kerneltrap.org/node/7636
>
>
> Common it's all about *MONEY* The rest is just smoke, mirrors
> and BULLSHIT....

you must know it...

>
> hth,
> James
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