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El 30/09/13 00:47, Volker Armin Hemmann escribió: |
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> Am 29.09.2013 18:41, schrieb Francisco Blas Izquierdo Riera (klondike): |
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>> El 29/09/13 18:03, Volker Armin Hemmann escribió: |
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>>> Am 29.09.2013 17:12, schrieb Greg Woodbury: |
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>>>> On 09/29/2013 07:58 AM, Volker Armin Hemmann wrote: |
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>>>> |
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>>>>> things were broken way before that. As much as I hate systemd, it is not |
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>>>>> the root cause of the problem. |
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>>>>> |
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>>>>> The problems were caused by people saying that seperate /usr was a good |
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>>>>> idea, so / would not fill up and similar idiocies. The problems were |
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>>>>> caused by people saying that lvm is a good idea - for desktops. Those |
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>>>>> people who are fighting against the kernel auto assembling raids are to |
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>>>>> blame too. |
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>>>>> |
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>>>>> Systemd is just another point in a very long list. |
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>>>>> |
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>>>> The usr filesystem was separate from root from the very early days of |
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>>>> UNIX. Disks were *tiny* (compared to today) and spreading certain |
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>>>> things across separate spindles provided major benefits. Certainly, |
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>>>> the original need to require a separate usr went away fairly quickly, |
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>>>> but other benefits continued to encourage a seperation between root |
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>>>> and usr. |
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>>>> |
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>>> in the very early days /usr did not exist in the first space and was |
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>>> only created because someone added a harddisk. |
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>>> |
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>>> Not really a good reason to keep it around. |
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>> I'm going to show the lack of sense of this argument: |
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>> in the very early days linux did not exist in the first space and was |
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>> only created because someone got a 386. |
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>> |
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>> Not really a good reason to keep it around. |
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> wrong analogy and it goes down from here. Really. |
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Ohh, but they are inspired on YOUR analogy, so guess how wrong yours was. |
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>> in the very early days GNU did not exist in the first space and was |
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>> only created because someone jammed a printer. |
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>> |
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>> Not really a good reason to keep it around. |
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>> |
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>> in the very early days Gentoo did not exist in the first space and was |
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>> only created because someone added a processor. |
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>> |
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>> Not really a good reason to keep it around. |
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>> |
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>> in the very early days hardening did not exist in the first space and was |
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>> only created because someone added security. |
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>> |
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>> Not really a good reason to keep it around. |
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>> |
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>> in the very early days Gnome did not exist in the first space and was |
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>> only created because someone got a graphics card. |
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>> |
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>> Not really a good reason to keep it around. |
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>> |
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>> I'm sure you'll be able to figure out the pattern there. |
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>> |
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>> Ohh and BTW, /usr was not just added because someone added a harddrive, |
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>> in most cases it was used to allow machines contain a very small system |
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>> on / which was enough to just boot and mount a networked system (/usr) |
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>> containing most of the software. This allowed for cheaper deployment of |
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>> machines since the hard drive could be smaller as it wouldn't need to |
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>> have all the data locally. Yeah, if this sounds familiar is because this |
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>> was later moved to initramfs. |
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> no, network'ed file systems came a lot later. |
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> Initially /usr was added because one harddisk was full. Really, that is |
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> the whole reason for its (broken) existance. |
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Please provide some reference about "Initially /usr was added because |
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one harddisk was full." without it your statement is moot to me. |
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|
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The setup of a separate /usr on a networked system was used in amongst |
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other places a few swedish universities. |
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>>>> The var filesystem was for variable system data, and was never |
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>>>> terribly big and its inclusion on the root volume happened. The home |
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>>>> filesystem became traditionally separate because data expands to fill |
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>>>> all availab;e space, and users collect *things* |
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>>> and a seperate /home does not create any problems. |
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>>> /var is much more prone to accidentally fill up then /usr ever was. |
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>> You are jst getting it wrong, /var was kept locally as the data there |
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>> was supposed to change from machine to machine. |
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> no, you just don't understand what I wrote. |
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> People told other people to keep /usr seperate so / may not fill up by |
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> accident. |
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> |
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> That advise always was murky at best. Outright stupid is a good |
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> description too. |
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> |
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> /usr is not prone to much changes. So if your / fits the contents of |
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> /usr just fine, there is pretty much no risk. |
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> /var on the other hand tends to explode - but a lot of people never got |
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> told to put /var on a seperate disk. |
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> |
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> If you ever realized that a tens of gigabyte logfile just made your box |
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> unbootable, you learnt a lot that day. |
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That's why you move /var/log, not /var |
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>>>> Networking made it possible to have home entirely off system, and |
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>>>> diskless worstations ruled for a while as well. |
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>>>> |
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>>>> By the time Linux came along, it had become common for boot volumes to |
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>>>> not be mounted during normal system operation, but the three |
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>>>> filesystem layout was common and workable. As Linux continued to be |
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>>>> like Topsy (she jest growed!) fragmentation started to occur as |
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>>>> "distributions" arose. The "balkanization" of Linux distributions |
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>>>> became a real concern to some and standardization offorts were |
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>>>> encouraged. |
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>>>> |
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>>>> The "File System Standard" (FSS) was renamed to the Filesystem |
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>>>> Hierarch Standard (FHS) and it was strongly based on the UNIX System V |
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>>>> definitions (which called for seperation of usr and root.) POSIX added |
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>>>> more layers and attempted to bring in the various BSD flavors. |
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>>>> |
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>>>> THe LSB (Linux Standards Base) effort was conceived as supersceeding |
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>>>> all the other efforts, and FHS was folded into the LSB definition. Yet |
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>>>> even then a separate root and usr distinction survived. Then things |
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>>>> started falling apart again - POSIX rose like a phoenix and even the |
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>>>> Windows/wintel environment could claim POSIX compliant behavior. The |
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>>>> fall of the LSB effort really became evident when the FHS was gutted |
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>>>> and certain major players decided to ignore the LSB recommendations. |
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>>> too bad POSIX is much older than LSB or FHS. |
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>> Too bad separate /usr is much older than initramfs. |
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> too bad that initramfs and initrd are pretty good solutions to the |
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> problem of hidden breakage caused by seperate /usr. |
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> If you are smart enough to setup an nfs server, I suppose you are smart |
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> enough to run dracut/genkernel&co. |
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If you are smart enough to run "dracut/genkernel&co" I suppose you are |
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smart enough to see the wrongness of your initial statement "too bad |
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POSIX is much older than LSB or FHS." |
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>>>> As a result, the GNOME Alliance has shattered. The main GNOME army |
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>>>> marches on its unfathomable path, and various large chunks have broke |
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>>>> off in their own directions (e.g. Cinnamon and Mate) seeking to remain |
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>>>> flexible and not incompatible with the KDE and other lesser DE folks. |
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>>>> |
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>>>> It is truly layable at the feet of the GNOME folks, the breakage of |
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>>>> the root and usr filesystem separability is all derived from the GNOME |
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>>>> camp. |
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>>>> These changes may not, in fact, be deliberate or intended to "defeat" |
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>>>> Microsoft, but Ockham's Razor cuts and intentionality is the simpler |
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>>>> explanation. |
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>>> that gnome is very hostile when it comes to KDE or choice is not news. |
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>>> And their dependency on systemd is just the usual madness. But they are |
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>>> not to blame for seperate /usr and the breakage it causes. |
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>> True, fingers here should be pointed into another direction like systemd. |
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> systemd is not the first package to break. |
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udev is a part of systemd |
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>>>> To come back to the thesis: robustness and flexibility are required |
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>>>> for good "health" and we are witnessing a dangerous challenge. |
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>>> what? that you need an initrd? That is so bad? |
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>> It may be, there is people which may not have enough free space ob /boot |
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>> for example. |
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> and now we are deeply into kidding territory. How small is that boot? 3mb? |
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Maybe, I know of Gentoo users running on really old Pentium IIs with |
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SCSI disks, so it wouldn't come as a surprise. |
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>>> Are you kidding me? |
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>> I doubt it, instead you seem to be just trolling, see your own arguments |
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> well, I haven't seen any arguments from you so far. So who is the troll |
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> again? |
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You have kindly disregarded them... like trolls tend to do, |
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>>>> [PS} If anybody cares, I was trained in both Computer Science and |
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>>>> Biological Science. and I can expand on the parallels if so desired. |
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>>>> |
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>>> no thank you. But if I might add one: you are making an elephant out of |
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>>> a gnat. |
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>> To me it looks like youu are making a gnat out of an elephant. |
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> what is the elephant? Running an extra command on kernel updates? |
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Requiring users to repartition systems with the downtime that carries, |
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for example. |