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On Sat, 2007-10-20 at 20:24 +0000, Duncan wrote: |
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> Lindsay Haisley <fmouse-gentoo@×××.com> posted |
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> 1192899794.10036.59.camel@××××××××××.com, excerpted below, on Sat, 20 Oct |
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> 2007 12:03:14 -0500: |
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> |
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> > On Sat, 2007-10-20 at 04:32 +0000, Duncan wrote: |
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> >> > It would be a Good Thing if new local accounts could be added to |
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> >> > group plugdev when they're created. |
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> |
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> For a moment there, I was rather confused, as I knew I certainly didn't |
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> write what plainly looked to be attributed to me... |
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|
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Yes, it can be confusing ;-) |
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|
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> I'll admit there are certainly ways to make the management thereof |
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> easier. OTOH, Gentoo is very deliberately not aimed toward those who |
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> need a huge amount of hand-holding, and users are expected to take |
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> responsibility for sysadmining their own system -- with guidance where it |
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> may be found necessary, of course, and this is arguably one such place. |
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|
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Gentoo has excellent online documentation, as you point out, but there |
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are times when the organization of it can be an issue. Those of us with |
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sysadmin experience don't need our hands held, generally, but OTOH we |
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don't like to have to waste time digging for facts we need under |
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multiple rocks. Over time, we learn where to look, but people keep |
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moving the rocks and adding more of them :-/ |
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|
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Unix at the gitgo was never aimed at beginners, but almost all the |
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documentation you needed was in man pages, and one's skill had to be in |
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reading and understanding the technical terms is said docs. These days, |
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necessary documentation is in a dozen different places - HTML help |
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files, online, traditional man page, etc. |
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|
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> The question was a reasonable one to ask, and it was quickly and |
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> reasonably answered (if by the original poster, but answered in any case) |
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> and confirmed. |
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|
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As the "original poster" I'll have to admit that I will very often post |
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to a forum such as this, then do the research an answer the question, |
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and then post the answer if I find one. There's method in this, in that |
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I feel that the original question is one that others may well have, and |
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even if I'm the one who posts the answer I'm exposing the solution to a |
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problem that is probably more common than just me. If I don't find an |
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answer, I'll often get one on this forum. |
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|
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> Gentoo can be rightly proud of the helpful environment it |
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> has fostered in this regard, and the fact that the original poster was |
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> resourceful enough to independently find and post the answer as well (and |
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> in such a short time) supports just how resourceful our users are. =8^) |
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|
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Gentoo is not for the faint of heart! |
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|
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> I know I've found the automatic repeat of messages at the end of |
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> the emerge session extremely helpful, here, and they are still logged for |
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> reference should I need to go back and look again. |
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I'm sure it is. My usual procedure is: |
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|
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1. Wait far to long to do an emerge --update world on my desktop |
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2. Start an emerge of 150 packages or so |
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3. Go take a nap and see a movie while OpenOffice builds |
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4. Come back an restart, with env settings, when the emerge crashes |
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5. Go take another nap and see another movie |
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6. Come back and read what hasn't scrolled out of my scrollback buffer |
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|
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If I get an error on something 2 weeks later, _maybe_ I can find a |
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reference to it in the info, but I'd have to know where to look. I |
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don't need hand-holding, but I don't like to have to waste time, either. |
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I do need to revisit enotice and see if I can't build it into something |
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that provides a search facility. |
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> However, to be fair, it's quite likely the hal merge in question was back |
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> before portage got so good at replaying its messages, and back then, it's |
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> understandable that they may have been lost in the noise, many many |
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> screens of info up from the ultimate emerge termination, so it's unfair |
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> to be too hard on someone missing the message... for a /little/ while |
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> longer, anyway. =8^) |
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|
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I had to do substantial research to discover that the problem was even |
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related to Hal, so it's unlikely that I would have known to review the |
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Hal upgrade notes until I was close to a solution anyway. |
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|
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A far more productive approach, and the one I used to solve this and |
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many other problems was to take a signature portion of the error message |
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and submit it on google. Generally I'm pretty good at separating |
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problems that lots of people may be having from those caused by my own |
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idiosyncratic sysadmining of my desktop box! |
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|
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> OK. I just get paranoid sometimes, that people are bringing their bad |
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> habits with them, and not being properly encouraged to learn good habits |
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> in their place. |
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|
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I _love_ my bad habits! |
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|
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> I expect you'll agree that the last thing anyone wants |
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> is for Linux to end up the virus and malware wasteland its most popular |
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> competition has tended to be, and perhaps I get too worked up when I see |
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> what I take as hints that someone wants Linux to head the same direction. |
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|
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It would be nice to have a concise table somewhere summarizing the |
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function of various modern group memberships. |
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|
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plugdev -> Allows plugging devices admin'd by udev |
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cdrom -> Allows manipulation of CDROM functions |
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video -> Provides access to ..... |
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etc. |
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|
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Call it hand-holding if you will, or you can call it simply a concise |
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organization of important information. I just checked, and I'm in 16 |
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different groups on my desktop system, some of which I have no idea why, |
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but I do know that I put my account into them at some point because it |
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was necessary for something that I needed to do. Wouldn't it be nice |
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for Gentoo to have an online doc section with a simple chart of this |
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nature? Yeah, I'm a competent sysadmin, and I can find all the |
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information, but there are times when I need to find something out |
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quickly so I can get on to more interesting things! |
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|
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-- |
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Lindsay Haisley | "In an open world, | PGP public key |
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FMP Computer Services | who needs Windows | available at |
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512-259-1190 | or Gates" | http://pubkeys.fmp.com |
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http://www.fmp.com | | |
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|
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-- |
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