Gentoo Archives: gentoo-doc

From: Chris Gianelloni <wolf31o2@g.o>
To: gentoo-doc@l.g.o
Subject: Re: [gentoo-doc] Stage1/2 deprecation from Gentoo Handbook
Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 16:11:31
Message-Id: 1131373113.11834.10.camel@cgianelloni.nuvox.net
In Reply to: Re: [gentoo-doc] Stage1/2 deprecation from Gentoo Handbook by Shyam Mani
On Sun, 2005-11-06 at 09:57 +0530, Shyam Mani wrote:
> Sven Vermeulen wrote: > > > The Gentoo Release Engineering team is pushing us to remove stage1 and > > stage2 references from the Gentoo Handbook. They are getting too many errors > > because the user is not able to fully comprehend the implications of a > > stage1 or stage2 installation. > > Huh? What? > > In which case, how would someone new to Gentoo do a Stage 1/2 install? > Actually, I don't understand the request at all, since it makes no sense > (atleast from this email :p).
Allow me to explain this better. The issue is not with users who follow the instructions so much as the ones that do not. The problem with this is *that is by design* a requirement for the lower stages. Essentially, the sole reason for a stage1 installation is to allow the users to completely customize their bootstrap process. It is not to simply give more optimization. The problem with this is we do *not* document any of this customization. To everyone that is going to come back to me and say something like "I did a stage1 and followed the Handbook and it worked" or similar, I respond with "You wasted your time." A stage1 installation gives no benefits over a stage3 installation *unless* you *know what you are doing* with compilers and bootstrapping and plan on *modifying* the process.
> I installed Gentoo from Stage 1, following the handbook. I had *no* > issues. I'm sorry, but removing portions of the handbook just because > there are users who won't read (I know, I had a friend who goofed up 4 > Gentoo installs because he was lazy to read the handbook) is *not* a > reason to remove perfectly correct and easy to understand documentation.
Alright. What are you going to do when we quit supplying the stage1 tarball? Running scripts/bootstrap.sh followed by an "emerge -e world" gains you nothing over using the stage3 tarball from the beginning. If you are making modifications to the bootstrap script yourself, or doing some funky cross-compiling that isn't supported by the bootstrap scripts then yes, a stage1 is useful. For everyone else, it is a waste of time and something that wastes countless hours of Release Engineering's time.
> > This does surprise me, either because it seems rather simple to me, or > > because I don't understand it myself (in which case we need(ed) better > > information regarding the subject). > > As it surprises me. In case this does happen, What do they(we) plan to > do for newbies wanting to do a Stage 1/2 install?
Personally, I'd like to see the tarballs dropped from our mirrors, but I don't see that happening just yet.
> BTW, it so happened that I met Andrew Cowie (Operational Dynamics, > Sydney) the other day here and we were discussing Gentoo. He felt that a > strong point that Gentoo has and others don't is that you get to > actually see the things as they happen. You actually see bootstrapping. > And that is a valid point. Removing references from the handbook takes > the oppurtunity away of learning all that the first time you install > Gentoo.
I'm sorry, but watching GCC text scroll by doesn't teach you a damn thing. Perhaps if these same users were actually opening the bootstrap script up in their favorite text editor and actually reading what it does they might be gaining a bit of understanding, but watching massive scrolling isn't exactly learning.
> Anyone from releng here who can clarify why they need this done? TIA
I think the above should explain it pretty well. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering - Strategic Lead x86 Architecture Team Games - Developer Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-doc] Stage1/2 deprecation from Gentoo Handbook Shyam Mani <fox2mike@g.o>