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On Sun, 2005-11-06 at 09:57 +0530, Shyam Mani wrote: |
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> Sven Vermeulen wrote: |
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> |
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> > The Gentoo Release Engineering team is pushing us to remove stage1 and |
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> > stage2 references from the Gentoo Handbook. They are getting too many errors |
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> > because the user is not able to fully comprehend the implications of a |
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> > stage1 or stage2 installation. |
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> |
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> Huh? What? |
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> |
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> In which case, how would someone new to Gentoo do a Stage 1/2 install? |
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> Actually, I don't understand the request at all, since it makes no sense |
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> (atleast from this email :p). |
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|
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Allow me to explain this better. The issue is not with users who follow |
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the instructions so much as the ones that do not. The problem with this |
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is *that is by design* a requirement for the lower stages. Essentially, |
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the sole reason for a stage1 installation is to allow the users to |
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completely customize their bootstrap process. It is not to simply give |
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more optimization. The problem with this is we do *not* document any of |
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this customization. To everyone that is going to come back to me and |
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say something like "I did a stage1 and followed the Handbook and it |
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worked" or similar, I respond with "You wasted your time." |
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|
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A stage1 installation gives no benefits over a stage3 installation |
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*unless* you *know what you are doing* with compilers and bootstrapping |
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and plan on *modifying* the process. |
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|
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> I installed Gentoo from Stage 1, following the handbook. I had *no* |
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> issues. I'm sorry, but removing portions of the handbook just because |
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> there are users who won't read (I know, I had a friend who goofed up 4 |
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> Gentoo installs because he was lazy to read the handbook) is *not* a |
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> reason to remove perfectly correct and easy to understand documentation. |
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|
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Alright. What are you going to do when we quit supplying the stage1 |
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tarball? Running scripts/bootstrap.sh followed by an "emerge -e world" |
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gains you nothing over using the stage3 tarball from the beginning. If |
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you are making modifications to the bootstrap script yourself, or doing |
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some funky cross-compiling that isn't supported by the bootstrap scripts |
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then yes, a stage1 is useful. For everyone else, it is a waste of time |
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and something that wastes countless hours of Release Engineering's time. |
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|
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> > This does surprise me, either because it seems rather simple to me, or |
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> > because I don't understand it myself (in which case we need(ed) better |
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> > information regarding the subject). |
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> |
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> As it surprises me. In case this does happen, What do they(we) plan to |
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> do for newbies wanting to do a Stage 1/2 install? |
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|
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Personally, I'd like to see the tarballs dropped from our mirrors, but I |
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don't see that happening just yet. |
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|
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> BTW, it so happened that I met Andrew Cowie (Operational Dynamics, |
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> Sydney) the other day here and we were discussing Gentoo. He felt that a |
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> strong point that Gentoo has and others don't is that you get to |
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> actually see the things as they happen. You actually see bootstrapping. |
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> And that is a valid point. Removing references from the handbook takes |
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> the oppurtunity away of learning all that the first time you install |
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> Gentoo. |
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|
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I'm sorry, but watching GCC text scroll by doesn't teach you a damn |
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thing. Perhaps if these same users were actually opening the bootstrap |
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script up in their favorite text editor and actually reading what it |
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does they might be gaining a bit of understanding, but watching massive |
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scrolling isn't exactly learning. |
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|
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> Anyone from releng here who can clarify why they need this done? TIA |
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|
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I think the above should explain it pretty well. |
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|
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-- |
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Chris Gianelloni |
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Release Engineering - Strategic Lead |
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x86 Architecture Team |
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Games - Developer |
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Gentoo Linux |