[gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to "normal" users

[Steven J. Long]

> William Hubbs wrote:
> > waltdnes wrote:
> >>   Question... when Sun made OpenOffice depend on Java (also a Sun
> >> product) did Gentoo developers run around suggesting that Java be made a
> >> part of the core Gentoo base system?  I don't think so.  If a user wants
> >> to run GNOME badly enough, he'll switch to systemd.  I don't see why the
> >> rest of us (i.e. non-users of GNOME) should have to follow along and
> >> reconfigure our systems.  This is a case of the tail wagging the dog.
> >
> >  I don't interpret what he is saying that way. I think what he is
> >  talking about is that we are trying to get teams to support non-systemd
> >  setups when upstreams do not, like with gnome.
> >
> >  Gnome now has a hard dependency on systemd (for gnome newer than 3.8).
> >  Some folks want to use gnome without systemd and are putting that under
> >  the gentoo is about choice banner and want us to support them.

I haven't seen anyone say that in this entire discussion, but I might have
missed something. "If a user wants to run GNOME, he [can] switch to systemd"
is clearly not saying that, so we're left with an enigmatic "some" who haven't
posted to this thread, afaics.

It's clear to me that users have been forced through lots of changes over the
last 5 years, even where we just want to carry on using our machines the way
we always have. Isn't that what convenience layers are about? So Walter's
point stands.

I for one have become very wary of accepting assurances that "nothing will
change" for existing users and their use-cases (since it's never proven
accurate from this upstream.) Especially when one init-system of several for
a niche operating-system becomes "the rest of the world."

> >> Fabio Erculiani wrote
> >>> So what do we want to do then? Isolate from the rest of the world?
> >>> (It's not a sarcastic question). I hope that everybody does their
> >>> own reality check.

Gnome can depend on w/e upstream require. How is that the whole world?
It's not even the whole Linux ecosystem, and I can't see Qt giving up cross-
platform independence, just to work with systemd. That was never going to
happen, so it was never going to happen in KDE either, however enthused a
few of its volunteers were, since KDE is a showcase for Qt.

You're right: reality-checks are clearly needed all over the place.

> >>   You are effectively calling not-using-GNOME isolationist.  Let's just
> >> say I disagree with you on that.  BTW, see my sig.

It's clear to me that systemd devs are the real isolationists: everyone
else has to do everything their way, or they'll throw their toys out of the
pram, including the ones they stole. The real trouble with "N+1 True Way" is
the contortions it forces them through, as they explain why "this time" they've
got it right, and how badly they got it wrong last time.

That wouldn't be an issue-- everyone makes mistakes-- if they hadn't rubbished
everyone else who pointed out issues along the way. After a few years of that,
sorry but enough already.

Matthew Thode wrote:
> If upstream gnome has that dep on systemd then I kinda think we should
> too (technical decision, not one I like personally)

I think we should too: all anyone has said is "Gnome is not Linux". Presenting
its choices as representative of every DE and upstream project is simply
misleading.

Claiming that making it easier to use systemd is in everyone's interests is
clearly untrue as well, since many of us our interests are caught up with a
modular system we can build and configure how we require. That's why we came to
Gentoo, and why we stay.

But I'm sure someone will declaim about how systemd doesn't force anything on
anyone (leveraging udev builds against your explicit word, doesn't count, nor do
any of the other changes like requiring an initramfs where none was needed before:
those are just things you should do because we tell you to) and Lennartware
hasn't already forced major changes and upgrade pain, for no tangible benefit to
the desktop-users it was purportedly aimed at.

I certainly haven't seen any new apps which weren't possible before, let alone a
class of them, which is what I'd expect in exchange for such intrusive breakages
of userspace. In fact, KDE works *better* without nubkit/ucrapola. Funny that.

By all means use your machines how you want, with whatever software you like.
Just respect our right to do the same: which includes the freedom NOT to use
software. If you cannot respect that choice (constantly trying to second-guess
our use-cases instead of accepting that actually we know them better than you,
and we don't want to have to file a bug and go through your mill every time we
want to do something "esoteric", that's why we use _soft_ware) then you cannot
expect much respect in return.

Courtesy, perhaps; if you don't spend an entire email belittling someone's
experience instead of answering the substantive points.

-- 
#friendly-coders -- We're friendly, but we're not /that/ friendly ;-)