Re: [gentoo-dev] RFD: new global USE flag gtk3

[Raymond Jennings]

If I may ask, isn't usage by 27 packages ample grounds on its own to make
it a global use flag?

This is one of the questions I noticed on the ebuild quiz, and there the
ballpark is around 5 packages sharing a use flag.  we're way over that mark.

my two cents.


On Tue, Feb 25, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Tom Wijsman <TomWij@g.o> wrote:

> On Tue, 25 Feb 2014 17:28:41 +0200
> Samuli Suominen <ssuominen@g.o> wrote:
>
> >
> > On 20/02/14 18:27, Tom Wijsman wrote:
> > > On Thu, 20 Feb 2014 11:26:18 +0200
> > > Samuli Suominen <ssuominen@g.o> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On 20/02/14 10:47, Steev Klimaszewski wrote:
> > >>> On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 10:40 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote:
> > >>>> On 20/02/14 09:44, Steev Klimaszewski wrote:
> > >>>>> On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 07:55 +0200, Samuli Suominen wrote:
> > >>>>>> On 20/02/14 00:23, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
> > >>>>>>> Following up to today's QA meeting: The gtk3 USE flag is used
> > >>>>>>> by 27 packages, so I suggest making it a global flag:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> gtk3 - Add support for x11-libs/gtk+ (The GIMP Toolkit)
> > >>>>>>> version 3
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Ulrich
> > >>>>>> that would suggest it's fine to use, and is anything but
> > >>>>>> temporary
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> -1 from here
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>> MATE desktop (which I hope to bring in to Portage soon) can be
> > >>>>> built against gtk+ 2 or gtk+ 3, and upstream supports doing
> > >>>>> both, so +1 from me.  Just because gtk+ 3 is the latest, does
> > >>>>> not mean it's the greatest, and I really wish people would
> > >>>>> realize that newest != bestest.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> Then you pick whatever is best supported for MATE, and ship it
> > >>>> using that. Later when they have completed their support for
> > >>>> GTK+-3, and it's the best supported, you ship that. It's not
> > >>>> rocket science.
> > >>>>
> > >>> OR, since I'm the maintainer, I decide that I'm willing to deal
> > >>> with both, instead of you telling me that I need to pick one or
> > >>> the other. Upstream says both are supported and viable, and I'm
> > >>> willing to deal with the headaches.  Just because you're
> > >>> unwilling doesn't mean others aren't.  kthx.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >> Bye bye distribution level consistency :-(
> > >>
> > >> It's sad that few stubborn developers can do that.
> > >>
> > >> - Samuli
> > >>
> > > "'Ey! Have you heard about it. Gentoo doesn't provide X with support
> > > for Y, then what are their USE flags even for; what a shame, ..."
> > >
> > > If people want to support and use multiple things, let them do so.
> > > It is pretty much what Gentoo and its philosophy are about; which
> > > somewhat can be summarized as providing choices such that we fit
> > > the users' need, and not force our one true way upon them...
> > >
> > > Greetings from someone who runs GNOME 3 and MATE simultaneously;
> > > you can intentionally break it, but why would you? It takes away
> > > our happiness. On the other hand, there's the part where you want
> > > to break it for a reason, perhaps for your happiness; but then I'd
> > > like to hear why.
> > >
> >
> > So, no more setting USE="gtk" and assuming the best packaged software
> > will be get installed, be it with what version of the toolkit, 1, 2
> > or 3
>
> What is "best"? What you would deem best, could be worst for the user.
>
> > Instead, now you have to selectively do the maintainers job for
> > figuring out which one is the best supported one
>
> The maintainer can use IUSE flag defaults for this; but, there are
> users that want to control which toolkit is installed. Going further,
> they want to decide which toolkit the software is built with.
>
> > Despite already picking up a modern theme with both GTK+ 2.x and GTK+
> > 3.x looks, now you might end up with half-crippled software just
> > because some stubborn people choose the looks, not the functionality,
> > to be their motivation
>
> You need to mask that as a packager.
>
> > Such people really don't deserve to own a packager status if they
> > can't take the time to determine / examine the package's best
> > supported graphical toolkit
>
> What is "best"? If upstream provides both and claims they both are
> well supported, I consider both are.
>
> > If multiple ones with similar feature set is supported, then the
> > latest toolkit is preferred
>
> What is "preferred"? What you prefer can be different than the user.
>
> > But seems like I'm repeating common sense which the GNOME guideline
> > layed out long ago
>
> The GNOME guideline fits just the GNOME team and developers whom follow
> that; however, in the bigger picture, there are maintainers that do not
> follow that and do something different. Looking at the tracker [1]; it
> appears that it is more common for such a bug to be marked as INVALID
> or WONTFIX, than it is to be marked as FIXED.
>
> As a result of this, the users get an inconsistent USE flag presented.
>
> The "common sense" is just another wording of "opinion" here; if it
> wants to be real "common sense" shared amongst almost everyone, it'll
> need a bit more than a guideline.
>
>  [1]:
>  https://bugs.gentoo.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=ALL%20blocked%3A420493
>
> --
> With kind regards,
>
> Tom Wijsman (TomWij)
> Gentoo Developer
>
> E-mail address  : TomWij@g.o
> GPG Public Key  : 6D34E57D
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>
>