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Igor posted on Thu, 09 Jan 2014 16:44:02 +0400 as excerpted: |
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> There is no data to tell what happens with Gentoo (to give that data is |
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> one of the goals of the project). We only have some formal esteems from |
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> unreliable sources. |
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> |
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> According to distro watch: |
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> |
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> In February 2012, Gentoo distro was in 19th place. |
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> In December 2012, Gentoo went to 22nd place. |
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> In December 2013, Gentoo is down to 32nd place |
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|
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There was some discussion of this previously. The conclusion was |
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basically that gentooers don't tend to be the trend-watching type, nor, |
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really, are we really interested in the trend-watching type, as that's |
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not gentoo's base or target user. Instead, our users tend to be |
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independent customizers that aren't so interested in what the majority |
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thinks, but, rather find gentoo's general support for letting them make |
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of their gentoo installation what they will a very good match for their |
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needs. If that's not the best match or if their needs change, the fact |
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that gentoo takes more work than many distros because you have to |
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actually configure and build it, tends to have them quickly off to some |
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other distro that's a better fit for their less time/interest, more |
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cookie-cutter needs. |
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|
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In a way, then, gentoo in the Linux ecosystem is what Linux itself is in |
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the more general OS ecosystem, and gentoo tends to get only the self- |
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selecting independent thinkers who value the ability to make their OS |
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what they want while never-the-less automating much of the process (thus |
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we aren't Linux from Scratch), in the same way that the same group, but |
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to a somewhat lessor extent, tend to be Linux users. |
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|
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And just as a significant subset of those Linux users and devs value |
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their (software) freedom and independence enough to not be willing to |
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sacrifice it just to have Linux more popular and maybe exceed MS, so a |
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lot of Gentoo users and devs aren't willing to compromise on gentoo's |
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ideals of highly customizable individuality just to see us rise in |
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rankings such as distro-watch. If it happens, great, but it won't |
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greatly affect the way gentoo is developed, and if it doesn't happen, no |
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big deal anyway, since that's not something we consider significant or |
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important, particularly /because/ we recognize that sort of user isn't |
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what gentoo's targeting in the first place. |
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|
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> According to Linux Counter |
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> |
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> In January 2012, Gentoo distro had 5.32% |
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> In January 2012, Gentoo had 4.04% |
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> In November 2013, Gentoo had 4,21% |
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|
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I guess one of those January 2012s is supposed to be something |
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different... |
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|
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Same thing here, really, tho the reason is a bit different. |
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|
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I know *I* certainly haven't registered with linuxcounter, and don't |
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expect I ever will, either. I see it as useless at best, and yet another |
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way to be tracked at worst. (I /do/ deliberately keep my browser's user- |
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agent string set to Linux instead of setting it to say the latest MS |
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Windows version, and deliberately kept 64-bit back when 32-bit was the |
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norm for similar reasons, so sites that I visit and thus care about can |
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count that, but I most certainly do NOT let the various third-party |
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tracing sites do their thing, using tools such as firefox plugins |
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noscript, request-policy and cookie permissions, as well as privoxy, to |
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help me keep that information out of third-party-tracker's hands.) |
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|
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Tho interestingly, that does show percentage stabilizing or even |
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increasing a bit between the second and third samples. What it means, |
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however, I'm not going to attempt to guess. For all I know it simply |
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means a few gentooers don't object to being tracked as strongly as they |
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once did, which is actually slightly disturbing to me, tho it's their |
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life so they get to decide, not me. |
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|
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> And from my experience of Gentoo forums, gentoo.wiki - I vote for Gentoo |
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> at least not gaining new users. |
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|
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That would be a more interesting number, there. But you don't provide |
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stats for that one, and personal perception such as yours above for those |
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constantly involved is notoriously inaccurate. Someone who left for a |
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couple years and came back tends to see changes much better, for the same |
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reason you don't tend to notice changes in a friend as you grow old |
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together, unless you're separated for a few years and then meet again. |
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|
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I wonder what the forums stats counts are. I know there's mailing list |
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activity stats as I've seen them posted occasionally, but I'm not sure if |
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there's anything like that for the forums... That would give us some |
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concrete numbers to work with. |
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|
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> If in several years the number of users is not increased - we can tell |
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> about stagnation. |
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|
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As I've personally argued about Linux, if popularity comes at the cost of |
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loss of freedom, etc, it's not worth it. There's worse things than |
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seeing numbers stagnate, and losing our ideals in a likely futile pursuit |
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of popularity (what's the chances of gentoo topping Red Hat even if we |
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forsook all that makes gentoo gentoo and tried? that's not what we're |
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good at or care about) is one of them. |
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|
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> It's all not very well thought after at this stage but immediate goals |
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> are like this: |
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> |
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> |
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> * Knowledge of [... multiple suggestions for tracking various things |
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potentially objectionable to gentoo users.] |
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|
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I suspect that the various gentoo stats efforts failed for the same |
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reason I suspect fewer than normal gentoo users are registered with |
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linuxcounter... Gentoo users tend to be the independent sort, and have a |
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distinct aversion to being counted or tracked. A few might opt in, but |
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not enough to get particularly good or reliable data, and if it were opt- |
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out or worse-yet hard-coded, we'd likely lose a lot of gentoo users over |
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it, not just because of the tracking objection itself (many can patch |
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that out if they have too, as I did gentoo/kde's hard-coded semantic- |
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desktop stuff here, when they tried to dump the flag in early kde 4.11, |
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tho fortunately they returned it before 4.11 stabilized), but because |
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that sort of hard-coding would be a betrayal of everything that a lot of |
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gentoo users have come to gentoo FOR, so were it to happen, it'd be time |
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to leave. |
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|
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|
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Meanwhile, those of us who have been around gentoo for a few years have |
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seen the "gentoo's stagnating/dying and here's what it must do to be- |
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popular-again/survive" thread several times over, by now. Gentoo's |
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still here; I'm still here. Those ideas... aren't... until they come |
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around for another round, as they seem to do every couple years... |
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|
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And FWIW, gentoo's number of devs rose until it hit something around 300, |
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then it fell back a bit (I think it reached 350 or so before they started |
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actively retiring devs who had disappeared for quite some time, but I |
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believe the number of active devs has never much exceeded 300, if that), |
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but has remained relatively steady around 250-ish devs, 200 or so active |
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depending on definition of "active", for several years now. Sometimes it |
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goes down a few, then it goes up a few, but overall it remains about the |
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same. |
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|
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Which actually fits various organizational/group dynamics models, |
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apparently, too. There's (apparently, this was posted one of the other |
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times a discussion like this came up, and it makes sense, but I've not |
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looked into it further) some studies to the effect that there are several |
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group size thresholds. IIRC (and I may not) the maximum effective size |
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for small groups was 20-50. At about that point, conflict goes up and |
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groups either adapt and change their practices to grow, or drop down |
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below that number again and tend to stay there. There's another such |
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threshold at 250-350, forcing further group practices adaption to grow |
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further. A number of FLOSS groups reach that one and never pass it, and |
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gentoo has been right there for some years now. But if that threshold is |
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passed, the group can grow relatively unrestrained again, to a size of |
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several thousand. I believe Debian is one of the few all-community |
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examples of passing the 250-350 threshold, but that they're stuck at the |
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next one, 2500-3000. |
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|
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I think the kernel has passed the 250-350 barrier now too, with git and |
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the distributed hierarchy of kernel lieutenants, codified signed-off-by |
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practices, etc, helping with that. Before the distributed git and |
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bitkeeper before that on the technical side, however, and before the |
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hierarchy of kernel lieutenants was established, there was a real crisis, |
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as Linus really was becoming the bottleneck, and nobody really knew how |
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to fix it as there's only so much one man can do. But they worked thru |
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the issues and busted that cap, and the kernel's moving faster than ever |
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thought possible, before. |
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|
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If that is indeed the case, then in ordered to grow, gentoo needs to |
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figure out how to get past that 250-350 developer threshold, and until/ |
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unless we do, we'll "stagnate" in at least active developer numbers. IOW, |
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it's primarily a social/organizational problem, not a technical problem, |
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tho as with the kernel and bitkeeper and then git, the right technical |
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tools can help. |
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|
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Actually, in that regard it's very possible that gentoo's long planned |
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and worked toward cvs-to-git conversion will help finally bust that |
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barrier for gentoo as well. Time will tell I guess, but that's one more |
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reason to try to help make it happen. |
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|
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-- |
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Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. |
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"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- |
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and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman |