Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

[Patrick Börjesson]

On 2008-06-19 18:32, Nirbheek Chauhan uttered these thoughts:
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 5:58 PM, Patrick Börjesson
> <psychotical@×××××××.com> wrote:
> > On 2008-06-19 04:09, George Prowse uttered these thoughts:
> >> In the end, PMS is just a way for them to spread their own agenda and force
> >> it on both the developers and the users so maybe it would be best for all
> >> if paludis and it's developers were to concentrate on making paludis for a
> >> different distro. Trollix may be a good place to start...
> >
> > I'm pretty sure "they" have no leverage what so ever to force the Gentoo
> > community into ANYTHING, so kindly lay off the exaggerations.
>
> The point is that their replies to the mailing list waste a lot of
> time and energy since people will *always* reply to them. Even if half
> the community decides (out of the half that hasn't unsubscribed or
> left because of them) not to reply to them, someone from the other
> half will reply, and the thread will again spiral downwards.

So how is that the Paludis guys fault? If you don't even expect "your
guys" (ie. official Gentoo Developers) to handle a conversation over a
mailinglist in a decent manner, how can you expect that from anyone
else?

> I recommend seeing (at least) the first 5-10 mins of
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 (posted
> by Roy Maples in this same thread)

Oh, I watched the entire thing, thank you. And from it i came to the
conclusion that the Paludis folk aren't the ones being more poisonous.
Sure, Ciaran can be an asshat at times, but he also brings up valid
points most of the time (and by most i mean extremely close to always). 

The closest point of the "Identification" part of that presentation that
I could find applying to Ciaran would be "Attempts to deliberately rile
people", which doesn't even apply since he's personally insulting
single individuals when he does it, and not the entire community.

> > If you're
> > not happy with the way that PMS is developed, fork it. It's open source.
> > That's the way open source development works; if you're not happy with
> > something, fix it (iow, do the damn work yourself instead of complaining).
>
> I completely agree. They should stop pushing it in everyone's faces.
> We all know PMS exists. When the developer community thinks it's
> ready, council will approve it.

How exactly are they pushing it in everyone's faces? Actually, there's
not much mension of PMS at all from the people actually working on PMS,
but rather mension of EAPI. And that's when it's actually relevant. 
And EAPI _was_ deemed relevant quite a while back if i remember right
(can't link to a specific discussion). 

And how exactly is "the developer community" going get to the point when
they "think it's ready" without any discussion about it?

> > I'm not a proponent for any side here, but i'm getting mighty fucking
> > irritated of the personal attacks. I know it's impossible for some
> > people, and it's probably an unreachable ideal, but could everyone just
> > think a couple of extra seconds about the technical aspects instead of
> > just lashing out because someone indirectly calls you an idiot when you
> > mess up.
>
> The problem, of course, comes up when one side likes to mix technical
> replies with personal attacks[1][2][3][4][...].
>
>
> 1. http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_23e836c773616f0e816f3c421900e1f1.xml
> 2. http://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-dev/msg_3bb49516dc83b9f4d8f80a4e67fa7a84.xml
> 3,4,... Many many more. I don't intend to waste time searching for them.

So you expect one side of the interraction (Ciaran in this case) to just
sit silently and accept the insults, while he on the other hand can't
say shit? Double standards anyone?

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