[gentoo-dev] tox (was: maintainer-needed@ packages need you!)

[Martin Vaeth]

This discussion has now become rather OT and does not belong
to this list. Anyway, since there appear to be some misunderstandings
concerning my previous remarks, I contribute one more post.

Duncan <1i5t5.duncan@×××.net> wrote:
>>> > > > Please don't. Not all communication partners are linux users.
>
> The (in)?famous network effect.  A network grows in value based on the
> number of users it has...

Not only: You might convince your communication partners to switch.
However, they must be able to switch on *their* systems easily
(and not have to install linux or solve other technical obstacles).

>>> > So it doesn't work [...]
>>>
>>> Can't agree with you here. I just tried tox (utox client) from
>>> tox-overlay. Works like charm from the box [...]

Maybe from utox to utox. From utox to antox (the android client) -
which is the only case that I can reasonably test - I was only once
able to send a friends request from antox to utox, but no message,
and nothing in the opposite direction. After an antox upgrade,
I cannot even use my login anymore, probably since the ID has
changed due to upgrade...

Also, you cannot be behind a restrictive NAT. For instance, one of
my NAT routers cannot easily be configured to forward the exotic port,
and then there is also the problem of UDP hole punching - not sure,
whether this is solved in tox at all.

I never tried to examine how skype does it, but opening ports in
NAT routers was never necessary for skype, probably because it
switches ports automatically as required. Moreover, since it uses
a central server, there is no UDP punching problem.

Such "magic" (like automatic port switching) is required if you
really want to suggest it to users who are not computer-affine:
It must really be "configuration free" - also in difficult situations -
and work out of the box. Currently, it apparently works only on some
only-linux clients, and only if the network is configured fine
for them.

>> As long as the vast majority of my contacts use Skype and Yahoo
>
> That was the point above about not everyone being a Linux user

No, I think these are different points: My point was about whether
people are *technically* able to switch (if all agree). The other
is whether people are *socially* able to switch.
Of course, both must be solved, but the former is the requirement
for the latter, and tox still seems to have a long way to reach
the former.

>>> It should be noted that at least in Linux skype is much harder to
>>> install and use since it requires pulseaudio

But this concerns only Linux users who probably are computer-affine
and can solve such problems (or know somebody who is).

>>> So skype reqires its own LXC container set up

Not really. There is a forum post how to use skype (*only* skype)
with pulseaudio (once bug 519530 gets fixed, you can even do this
without patching any ebuild or configuration.)

To avoid a misunderstanding: I really oppose the non-privacy
policy of skype, and hardly can await until tox is ready.
However, the current state is that skype is without alteratives
for many people.
Moreover, suggesting tox to casual computer users too early -
like now when many technical problems are not yet solved -
would be rather contraproductive and actually kill tox:
People who once had a bad experience will likely refuse to switch
when tox *is* ready.