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On Sun, 8 Jan 2012 00:47:21 +0100 |
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Lars Wendler <polynomial-c@g.o> wrote: |
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|
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> Am Freitag 06 Januar 2012, 17:07:20 schrieb Alex Alexander: |
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> > On Fri, Jan 06, 2012 at 08:35:32AM -0500, Rich Freeman wrote: |
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> > > On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 5:36 PM, Alex Alexander <wired@g.o> |
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> > > wrote: |
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> > > > If people are really interested in keeping a tight, self |
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> > > > contained root, we need to: |
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> > > > |
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> > > > - establish a [tight] list of software we consider critical |
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> > > > for / |
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> > > > - fix/patch software in that list so it can run without /usr |
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> > > > there |
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> > > > - create /bin => /usr/bin/ symlinks for above software |
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> > > > (simplifies things if packages start hardcoding /usr/bin here |
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> > > > and there) |
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> > > > - move everything else in /usr/bin/ |
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> > > |
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> > > You're missing one thing: |
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> > > |
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> > > - establish a list of all the configurations that will actually |
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> > > work with this self-contained root |
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> > > |
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> > > I think this is why there is so much disagreement over whether |
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> > > this is a good move. If you have a really simple configuration, |
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> > > then the self-contained root concept works reasonably well |
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> > > (though apparently we'll have to heavily patch newer versions of |
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> > > udev or abandon it to sustain this). |
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> > > |
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> > > However, if you have a very complex configuration the current |
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> > > self-contained root is already broken and you need an initramfs |
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> > > anyway. For in-between cases things might work now but that is |
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> > > likely to change as upstream moves on. |
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> > > |
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> > > The binary distros don't have users tweaking their kernels and |
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> > > init scripts, so they basically have to design for worst-case. |
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> > > Gentoo can get away with designing for more of an average case |
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> > > since we just tell anybody with a complex case to go read a howto |
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> > > and configure what is necessary (and we like to do that stuff |
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> > > anyway). |
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> > > |
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> > > We can choose not to like it, but it sounds like maintaining a |
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> > > self-contained root for even the typical case will become |
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> > > untenable. Those who argue that having /usr on a separate |
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> > > partition simply shouldn't be supported are basically just saying |
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> > > that our "self-contained root" should include everything in /usr |
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> > > which seems to defeat the whole point of a "self-contained root" |
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> > > anyway. |
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> > > |
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> > > It seems to me that the most reasonable approach is to not force |
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> > > the issue, but not deviate greatly from upstream either. That |
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> > > means accepting that over time the rootfs will become less and |
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> > > less capable of working on its own, and immediately improving |
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> > > tools like dracut to overcome these limitations. Users who can |
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> > > get away with it can avoid using an initramfs, at least for a |
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> > > time. |
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> > > |
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> > > Sure, it is all open source, and Gentoo can swim upstream if we |
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> > > REALLY want to. However, this only works if developers are |
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> > > willing to spend the time constantly fixing upstream's tools. It |
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> > > sounds to me like the maintainers of packages like |
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> > > udev/systemd/etc want to actually move in the same direction as |
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> > > upstream so in practice I don't see that happening. |
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> > > |
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> > > Now, Gentoo is about choice, so one thing we should try to do as |
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> > > much as possible is understand the limitations of the various |
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> > > configurations and make it clear to users when they do and don't |
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> > > need an initramfs. To be honest, tight coupling worries me more |
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> > > than the /usr move, since that has a lot more potential to |
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> > > constrain the choices we can offer our users (which is a great |
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> > > deal of the value that Gentoo offers). I understand its |
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> > > advantages, but it seems somewhat contrary to "the unix way." |
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> > |
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> > That's why I wrote "tight list". I do not expect the self-contained |
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> > root to be able to handle everything /usr (or a complete initramfs) |
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> > would. What it could and couldn't do is something that needs to be |
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> > decided, but some work is already done there - it's just a bit |
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> > messy and incomplete and because most people don't care it keeps |
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> > getting worse. |
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> > |
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> > The important thing here is to make a clear definition of where we |
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> > draw the line and make sure things work the way we want them to. |
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> > |
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> > I agree with you in that at some point patching may become too time |
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> > consuming, but I still believe that if we do this properly, with a |
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> > well-defined plan and list of packages we want to keep in / (with |
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> > symlinks to be compatible with whatever others are trying to do), we |
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> > won't be alone in this. Gentoo may be one of the most hardcore |
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> > power-user distros out there, but we're certainly not the only one. |
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> > |
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> > Now, if only we had people interested enough in doing this... :) |
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> |
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> I'm interested in everything which prevents such kind of insanity |
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> from Gentoo. So count me in as volunteer keeping /bin, /sbin and /lib |
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> in Gentoo and systemd away from it. |
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> As long as we keep trying and working hard I'm sure we can do the |
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> workload that might come across when blind upstreams start adopting |
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> those foolish systemd/GnomeOS ideas... |
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|
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From which point this was systemd/GnomeOS ideas? As far I can see, this |
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was completely irrelevant, separate Fedora idea. But with scapegoat, |
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everything seems better, doesn't it? |
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|
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Does working hard involve compiling even more packages statically? |
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Considering that we all know the drawbacks of static linkage, this is |
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definitely not insanity. |
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|
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-- |
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Best regards, |
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Michał Górny |