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On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 7:14 AM, Anthony G. Basile <blueness@g.o> wrote: |
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> On 2/9/16 6:59 AM, Rich Freeman wrote: |
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>> On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 12:27 AM, Anthony G. Basile <blueness@g.o> wrote: |
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>>> On 2/8/16 10:09 PM, Rich Freeman wrote: |
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>>>> How many of those 14 distros have more than 14 users? |
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>>> |
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>>> gentoo is very unpopular as a distro. however, it excels as a meta |
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>>> distro. if you marginalize its special features, you take away all its |
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>>> charm. |
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>> |
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>> Gentoo's special feature is that it is source-based, not that it uses |
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>> a different udev implementation from everybody else by default. |
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> |
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> that's not what i said. |
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|
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You implied that I'm marginalizing Gentoo's special features. I don't |
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see how using a different udev implementation than 99% of the linux |
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install base is one of Gentoo's special features. |
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|
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But, by all means clarify what you do mean if I'm misunderstanding |
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your point. Or, if it |
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|
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> |
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>> |
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>>>> |
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>>>> Look, I get it, some people don't like systemd. That's fine. |
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>>>> However, you have to realize at this point that a non-systemd |
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>>>> configuration is anything but mainstream. |
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>>> |
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>>> neither is a system based on musl or uclibc, but if you need an embedded |
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>>> system, then these are "mainstream". |
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>> |
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>> Sure, but they're also not defaults. |
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> |
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> this is circular argumentation. they are not default where they are not |
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> default. and they are where they are. |
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> |
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> you simply want to privilege a certain set of targeted systems |
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> (desktop/server) over another set (embedded). |
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|
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Gentoo's default virtual providers are almost universally focused on |
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desktop/server systems. |
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|
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Even if you accept the argument that eudev is more suitable for |
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embedded, it would be just one more virtual in a sea of virtuals whose |
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defaults are not ideal in the embedded world. |
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|
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If somebody wants to create an extension to profiles where you can |
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change the order of virtual defaults so that you can have an embedded |
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default that preferes uclibc over glibc more power to them. |
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|
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However, in distro we're maintaining today everything is focused on |
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desktop/server. |
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|
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> |
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>> |
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>>> |
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>>> anyhow, the argument in the subject is the order of udev and eudev in |
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>>> the virtual, not systemd vs eudev. |
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>> |
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>> And that is about defaults. |
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> |
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> nope. currently stages come with sys-fs/udev as default. |
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|
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The whole point of this thread is that somebody wants to change this. |
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Inevitably changing the defaults requires having a big slug-fest over |
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which new default is better. And that is why I made the suggestion to |
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try to moot the decision by just making this part of the handbook. |
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|
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Of course this is going to be a contentious discussion. Of course |
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people are going to get upset about this. |
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|
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I'm sorry if my suggestion to make the default less relevant seems |
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like a diversion to the original point of the thread, but I actually |
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see that as the only way to actually RESOLVE the thread. Otherwise |
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this just turns into a which-implementation-is-better slugfest, which |
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is what we're having right now. |
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|
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>>> |
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>>> There will always be a |
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>>>> "poppyseed linux" whose purpose in life seems to be to preserve linux |
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>>>> without sysfs or some other obscure practice. |
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>>> |
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>>> no, more like special uses. you're framing the issue based on your |
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>>> notion of "mainstream" |
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>> |
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>> My notion of mainstream, and Fedora's, and Debian's, and RHEL's, and Arch's... |
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> |
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> correct, that is your notion. in the grand scheme of things windows is |
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> mainstream and fedora, debian, etc are just marginal. |
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> |
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> you're missing the point that the style of argumentation you're taking |
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> is one of a particular view that you privilege. |
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|
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No argument that different people use Gentoo for different reasons, |
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and they're going to weigh more heavily the arguments that emphasize |
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their own preferences. |
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|
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The problem is that ultimately with the design of Gentoo there can |
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only be ONE default virtual/udev provider. |
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|
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There are many ways to resolve this: |
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1. Somebody just unilaterally changes the default. (Not likely to |
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work - just leads to revert wars and nonsense in the repo.) |
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2. Eventually the council is asked to pick a winner. (The council |
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will likely not want to do this, and no matter what they pick a huge |
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portion of the distro will probably be upset about it). |
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3. Make the default unimportant by making this part of the handbook. |
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(This is what we do with emacs vs vim, and it has the side benefit of |
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being more appropriate for installs that don't even need a udev |
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implementation.) |
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|
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Historically Gentoo has tended to take the approach of #3. This |
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avoids having to wage huge battles over stuff like this. I think that |
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would be more productive than the two of us going back and forth about |
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whose baby is uglier. |
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|
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> |
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>> |
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>>>> |
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>>>>> |
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>>>>> it needs to be in the new stage4s to make a bootable system. imo a |
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>>>>> stage4 should be bootable modulo a kernel. |
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>>>>> |
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>>>> |
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>>>> Sure, a stage4 based on systemd makes a lot of sense. |
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>>> |
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>>> not for embedded and the things i work on. these have users. |
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>>> |
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>> |
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>> Systemd makes plenty of sense for many embedded solutions. For the |
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>> kinds of solutions where it doesn't make sense, I'm not sure that |
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>> linux makes sense. |
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> |
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> like? embedded os has avoided systemd like the plague. they opt for |
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> busybox mdev. |
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For a box where RAM is at a super-premium, even the Linux kernel may |
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be too much to ask for. |
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|
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If RAM isn't at much of a premium (hundreds of MB), then systemd runs |
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just fine and it has a lot of features that support homeostatis which |
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I'd think would be an important feature in an embedded system. Its |
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only real downside is its newness. |
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|
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> |
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> the assumption here is that Gentoo is a single distribution where its |
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> from source nature makes it a meta distribution. so you create a false |
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> dichotomy between gentoo and "tiney distros whose main purpose" Many of |
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> those "tiny distros" are gentoo because gentoo is a set covering many |
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> derivatives. |
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|
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And those distros can still exist no matter what the default udev |
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provider is. I'm all for preserving choice. I just don't think that |
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eudev is an appropriate default for the sorts of use cases where any |
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of our other default providers make sense. |
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> |
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> the reason i'm engaging in this is not because of the default. the |
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> reason i'm engaging in this dialogue is because of the repeated |
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> reduction in vision as to what "from source" means. |
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> |
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|
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Again, I'm not suggesting taking away choice at all. In fact, my |
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suggestion was to move this into the handbook to give users more |
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choice than they have today. |
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There is already a thread on gentoo-user asking how to safely switch |
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from udev->eudev. If that were just a part of the handbook that isn't |
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even a migration they'd have to make on a new install. Nor would |
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udev->systemd. |
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|
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To summarize my goals in this thread: |
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1. Suggest that rather than picking a winner we instead just let the |
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user pick the winner. |
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2. Demonstrate the futility of actually trying to pick a winner, |
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because we all have different values on this subject. |
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|
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-- |
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Rich |