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On 05/20/2013 10:34 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: |
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> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:03 AM, Daniel Campbell <dlcampbell@×××.com> wrote: |
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>> On 05/19/2013 01:05 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote: |
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>>> On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Peter Stuge <peter@×××××.se> wrote: |
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>>>> J. Roeleveld wrote: |
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>>>>> I don't see how this will avoid the issue of a limited amount of |
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>>>>> inodes. |
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>>>>> That is what I usually run out of before the disk is full when |
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>>>>> storing lots of smaller files. |
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>>>> |
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>>>> I guess the number of unit files is on the order of hundreds |
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>>> |
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>>> (Sorry, sent email before it was ready). |
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>>> |
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>>> Laptop running full GNOME: |
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>>> |
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>>> # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc |
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>>> 154 154 7012 |
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>>> |
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>>> Server running Apache+MySQL+Mailman+Squid+Other services: |
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>>> |
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>>> # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc |
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>>> 121 121 5560 |
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>>> |
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>>> And as you said, you can always use INSTALL_MASK. If 154 files are |
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>>> going to deplete your inodes, I think your problem lies somewhere |
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>>> else. |
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>>> |
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>>> Regards. |
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>>> -- |
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>>> Canek Peláez Valdés |
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>>> Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación |
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>>> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México |
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>>> |
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>> |
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>> That's missing the point. If you don't run systemd, having unit files is |
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>> pointless. Thankfully there's INSTALL_MASK and whatnot, but that seems |
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>> like a hack instead of something more robust. Why include systemd unit |
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>> files (by default, with no systemd USE flag, thanks to the council...) |
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>> on a system that's not using it? 154 files isn't negligible unless |
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>> you're flippant with your system and don't care about bloat. Unused |
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>> software sitting around *is* a waste of disk-space. |
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> |
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> Unit files are not software; they are data. |
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> |
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> And I believe you are the one missing the point. I don't run OpenRC; I |
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> don't need no files in /etc/init.d. But you don't see me (nor any |
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> other systemd user) complaining about pointless scripts in |
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> /etc/init.d. I just put /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK and go on with my |
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> life. |
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> |
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> Non-systemd users should do the same for files under /usr/lib/systemd, |
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> if they really are that worried about systemd "infecting" their |
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> systems. Complaining about a council-decided policy (and, I believe, |
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> backed up by the developers that matter, including the OpenRC |
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> maintainers) is just beating on a dead horse. |
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> |
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> Get over it. |
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> |
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>> Some people (like myself) came to Gentoo to avoid putting systemd on |
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>> their systems and to make use of the great choice that Gentoo allows. |
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>> This push to make systemd a "first level citizen" or whatever reeks of |
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>> marketing. |
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> |
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> If Gentoo is about choice, then systemd is one of those choices. And |
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> systemd will become a first class citizen inside Gentoo, like it or |
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> not. Support for it has been getting better and better, and more and |
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> more Gentoo users are running with systemd. |
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> |
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> If some fundamentalists users don't want even one file in their |
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> systems with "systemd" on their paths, they can install eudev/mdev, |
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> put the necessary directories in INSTALL_MASK, and do the extra work. |
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> If some other fundamentalists users (like myself) don't want even one |
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> OpenRC related file on our systems, we can create an overlay to remove |
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> the dependency of baselayout on OpenRC, put /etc/init.d in |
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> INSTALL_MASK, and do the extra work. |
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> |
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> Neither case covers the average systemd/OpenRC user, who doesn't care |
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> about a few scattered files in /etc/init.d nor /usr/lib/systemd, and |
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> just want to run her machine with the init system of her choice. If |
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> Gentoo is really about choice. |
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> |
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>> If there is desire among users for unit files, they can |
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>> contact upstream or maintain their own set of unit files. It's not like |
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>> they're hard to write. |
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> |
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> So, Gentoo is about choice, but only for the choices you agree with. Great. |
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> |
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> Regards. |
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> -- |
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> Canek Peláez Valdés |
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> Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación |
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> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México |
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> |
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|
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It seems that I've stepped on a few toes in calling INSTALL_MASK a hack. |
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Hacks aren't necessarily bad; if anything it shows that there's interest |
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in supporting something but perhaps not enough time or manpower to |
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implement a more robust solution. If adding one or two directories to |
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that variable will nuke any unit files, consider me happy. |
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|
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systemd is certainly a choice, but it is no more deserving of |
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consideration than any other init system. I don't see anyone calling for |
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runit to be a 'first level citizen'. I wonder why that is. Again, if |
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INSTALL_MASKing openrc dirs will get rid of init scripts for systemd |
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users, then perhaps INSTALL_MASK is the best we have for now and should |
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make use of it. I never said that it wasn't suitable to use. |
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|
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As for "complaining" about policy, what is the proper thing to do in a |
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situation where someone questions the reasoning behind a decision? Are |
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there links somewhere on Gentoo's website that outline the process for |
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each important decision that the council's made? I think it'd be |
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valuable information for people and keep individuals like you from |
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telling others to "get over it" without any explanation whatsoever. |
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That's not communication, that's prescription. |
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|
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I'm curious as to why you consider users who want to save disk space |
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(openrc or systemd, or other packages, it doesn't matter) as |
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fundamentalists. |
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|
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I do not consider Gentoo to be only about my own choices, but as a user, |
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who else's choices am I going to consider when I administer my system? |
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I'm happy for any new choices as long as they don't step on mine. I |
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think that's fair. |