Re: Re: Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Making systemd more accessible to "normal" users

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 9:39 PM, Daniel Campbell <dlcampbell@×××.com> wrote:
> On 05/20/2013 10:34 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 3:03 AM, Daniel Campbell <dlcampbell@×××.com> wrote:
>>> On 05/19/2013 01:05 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés wrote:
>>>> On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 9:34 AM, Peter Stuge <peter@×××××.se> wrote:
>>>>> J. Roeleveld wrote:
>>>>>> I don't see how this will avoid the issue of a limited amount of
>>>>>> inodes.
>>>>>> That is what I usually run out of before the disk is full when
>>>>>> storing lots of smaller files.
>>>>>
>>>>> I guess the number of unit files is on the order of hundreds
>>>>
>>>> (Sorry, sent email before it was ready).
>>>>
>>>> Laptop running full GNOME:
>>>>
>>>> # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc
>>>>     154     154    7012
>>>>
>>>> Server running Apache+MySQL+Mailman+Squid+Other services:
>>>>
>>>> # find /usr/lib/systemd/system -type f | wc
>>>>     121     121    5560
>>>>
>>>> And as you said, you can always use INSTALL_MASK. If 154 files are
>>>> going to deplete your inodes, I think your problem lies somewhere
>>>> else.
>>>>
>>>> Regards.
>>>> --
>>>> Canek Peláez Valdés
>>>> Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
>>>> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's missing the point. If you don't run systemd, having unit files is
>>> pointless. Thankfully there's INSTALL_MASK and whatnot, but that seems
>>> like a hack instead of something more robust. Why include systemd unit
>>> files (by default, with no systemd USE flag, thanks to the council...)
>>> on a system that's not using it? 154 files isn't negligible unless
>>> you're flippant with your system and don't care about bloat. Unused
>>> software sitting around *is* a waste of disk-space.
>>
>> Unit files are not software; they are data.
>>
>> And I believe you are the one missing the point. I don't run OpenRC; I
>> don't need no files in /etc/init.d. But you don't see me (nor any
>> other systemd user) complaining about pointless scripts in
>> /etc/init.d. I just put /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK and go on with my
>> life.
>>
>> Non-systemd users should do the same for files under /usr/lib/systemd,
>> if they really are that worried about systemd "infecting" their
>> systems. Complaining about a council-decided policy (and, I believe,
>> backed up by the developers that matter, including the OpenRC
>> maintainers) is just beating on a dead horse.
>>
>> Get over it.
>>
>>> Some people (like myself) came to Gentoo to avoid putting systemd on
>>> their systems and to make use of the great choice that Gentoo allows.
>>> This push to make systemd a "first level citizen" or whatever reeks of
>>> marketing.
>>
>> If Gentoo is about choice, then systemd is one of those choices. And
>> systemd will become a first class citizen inside Gentoo, like it or
>> not. Support for it has been getting better and better, and more and
>> more Gentoo users are running with systemd.
>>
>> If  some fundamentalists users don't want even one file in their
>> systems with "systemd" on their paths, they can install eudev/mdev,
>> put the necessary directories in INSTALL_MASK, and do the extra work.
>> If some other fundamentalists users (like myself) don't want even one
>> OpenRC related file on our systems, we can create an overlay to remove
>> the dependency of baselayout on OpenRC, put /etc/init.d in
>> INSTALL_MASK, and do the extra work.
>>
>> Neither case covers the average systemd/OpenRC user, who doesn't care
>> about a few scattered files in /etc/init.d nor /usr/lib/systemd, and
>> just want to run her machine with the init system of her choice. If
>> Gentoo is really about choice.
>>
>>> If there is desire among users for unit files, they can
>>> contact upstream or maintain their own set of unit files. It's not like
>>> they're hard to write.
>>
>> So, Gentoo is about choice, but only for the choices you agree with. Great.
>>
>> Regards.
>> --
>> Canek Peláez Valdés
>> Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
>> Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México
>>
>
> It seems that I've stepped on a few toes in calling INSTALL_MASK a hack.
> Hacks aren't necessarily bad; if anything it shows that there's interest
> in supporting something but perhaps not enough time or manpower to
> implement a more robust solution. If adding one or two directories to
> that variable will nuke any unit files, consider me happy.

As I was, when I used to put /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK.

> systemd is certainly a choice, but it is no more deserving of
> consideration than any other init system. I don't see anyone calling for
> runit to be a 'first level citizen'. I wonder why that is.

Probably because is used by a really small number of users, contrary to systemd

> Again, if
> INSTALL_MASKing openrc dirs will get rid of init scripts for systemd
> users, then perhaps INSTALL_MASK is the best we have for now and should
> make use of it. I never said that it wasn't suitable to use.

Then we agree.

> As for "complaining" about policy, what is the proper thing to do in a
> situation where someone questions the reasoning behind a decision?

Contribute?

> Are
> there links somewhere on Gentoo's website that outline the process for
> each important decision that the council's made?

The Council meetings logs are in the Council project page:

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/#doc_chap6

> I think it'd be
> valuable information for people and keep individuals like you from
> telling others to "get over it" without any explanation whatsoever.
> That's not communication, that's prescription.

I think I gave an explanation when I said "Complaining about a
council-decided policy (and, I believe, backed up by the developers
that matter, including the OpenRC maintainers) is just beating on a
dead horse." The important thing being that the ones writing the code
(including the OpenRC maintainer) already made their choice.

> I'm curious as to why you consider users who want to save disk space
> (openrc or systemd, or other packages, it doesn't matter) as
> fundamentalists.

Because wanting to eradicate some dozens of files that take not even
one megabyte (combined!) is, in my (updated) view, fundamentalist.

When I wrote the overlay to get rid of OpenRC it was because (back
then, a couple of years ago), some udev rules sometimes would try to
call scripts in /etc/init.d, and then they would try to start all of
OpenRC's services, slowing down (sometimes for close to a minute) the
booting time. Now the situation has improved greatly, and systemd on
Gentoo works great; I would even venture to say that works better than
in Fedora. Now, thanks to the work of people like Fabio Erculiani,
both init systems can be installed in parallel without stepping in
each other toes, and at boot time you can decide which one to use.

I recently converted a server from OpenRC to systemd, and it was the
first time I didn't use my overlay. The switch was completely
painless, and I decided that putting /etc/init.d in INSTALL_MASK was
kinda stupid. It makes no sense (I believe, now) to remove  51 files
that utilize 232K just so the server is "100% OpenRC-free". I think I
should be able to uninstall OpenRC (and work is progressing in that
direction), but I no longer care about files in /etc/init.d.

I got over it.

> I do not consider Gentoo to be only about my own choices, but as a user,
> who else's choices am I going to consider when I administer my system?

Who took away any choice from you?

> I'm happy for any new choices as long as they don't step on mine. I
> think that's fair.

What choices of yours were stepped on?

Regards.
--
Canek Peláez Valdés
Posgrado en Ciencia e Ingeniería de la Computación
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México