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Hi Ryan, |
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|
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Ryan Phillips wrote: |
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> I believe the way Gentoo is doing things is broken. There I have said it. The |
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> entire project has reached a level of being too political and trying to solve |
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> certain problems in the wrong way. |
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|
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I think it actually works quite well. Yes, there is space for |
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improvement, like always, but the situation is at least not bad. |
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|
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> __Problem: Developer Growth__ |
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> |
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> I find that developer growth as being a problem. Adding a developer to gentoo |
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> should be as easy as 1. has the user contributed numerous (~5+) patches that |
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> helps the project move forward. If yes, then commit access should be given. |
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> Adding a developer is usually quite a chore. There are numerous reasons why |
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> this is a problem: having a live tree, taking a test, and not defining within |
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> policy when a person could possibly get commit access. |
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|
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I can only speak for me here, but the quiz wasn't a barrier at all to |
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me. Instead, it was an interesting way to make sure that I get familiar |
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with all the stuff I have to. I found it a much better way to answer |
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questions about a topic where you have to find the answers than just |
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reading through tons of docs, not knowing whether something is important |
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to you or completely unrelated. |
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|
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Besides that, I think the tree is far too worthy to give it away after 5 |
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patches. Just because I fixed a bunch of compiling errors, that doesn't |
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mean I know how to fix ebuilds. Just because I wrote a few ebuilds, that |
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doesn't mean I understand how eclasses work, which ones to use where and |
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what profile.bashrc is good for. |
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|
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I've seen ebuilds from people who have written quite a bunch of ebuilds |
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and were really interested in understanding how they work, but the work |
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they produced just was awful and hurt my eyes. I don't mean that the |
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mean way, I don't expect anything else, and I was just the same. |
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However, the mentoring process and the quiz have helped me a lot to |
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understand not-so-obvious problems. |
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|
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> All these reasons leave the project stagnant and lacking developers. |
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|
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I wouldn't say so. Just about two weeks or so ago, the recruiters had to |
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defer new requests, because they couldn't deal with them in a timely |
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fashion. You can now tell me that this makes it even worse, but I just |
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see that as the proove of the fact that people are interested in helping |
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us and ready to take the quiz and all the "hassle" involved with |
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becoming a dev. |
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|
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Another good reason to keep the current process is the fact that a lot |
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of people become dev and vanish a week after their mentoring period |
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expired. These people would better contribute to the project in a more |
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distant way IMHO, because it takes up a fair amount of time to clean up |
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these accounts afterwards. If you don't beleave me, ask kloeri. ;) |
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|
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> Perhaps its because of a live tree... |
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|
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That's surely a big factor. |
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|
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> __Problem: Live Tree__ |
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> |
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> Having a live tree requires people to be perfect. People are not perfect and |
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> requiring it is ridiculous. I love having commits in my local tree within the |
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> hour, but having a stable and unstable branch makes a lot of sense. |
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|
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It doesn't require people to be perfect. It requires people to think |
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before commiting. If it really required us to be perfect, we wouldn't |
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exist in the first place, would we? |
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|
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Having a stable and unstable branch doesn't have many advantages over |
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stable and unstable keywords IMHO, but requires a HUUUGE effort to keep |
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them in sync. It would make things more complicated than necessary. You |
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say we're lacking developers. Do you really want to spend [insert random |
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big number here] of these much-needed developer hours to merging an old |
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with a new tree? |
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|
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> __Problem: CVS__ |
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|
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I would like to see us using svn instead of CVS too, but I think that's |
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just a technical detail, not really fitting here. |
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|
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> __Problem: QA Policies__ |
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|
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> Everyone here is on the same team. There will be some breakages in the tree |
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> and those can be dealt with. Like Seemant [1] said, herds are just groups of |
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> like *packages*. The QA Policy is wrong when it says cross-team assistance; we |
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> are all on the *same* team. The tree should naturally work. If it doesn't |
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> then that is a bug for all of us. |
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|
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This sounds romantic. However, Gentoo to me isn't 300 people who are all |
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my friends, all working on a common goal. Gentoo, to me, is a bunch of |
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very nice people that share a goal with me, some big mailing lists with |
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flames every now and then and a big mass of people whose work I use and |
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appreciate but who I don't have a f*cking clue about. I don't know what |
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they are like, they work on other things than I do. But that's not a |
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problem at all. |
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|
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> Conflict resolution should not be a subproject. It should *not* exist at all. |
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|
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You mean conflicts or conflict solution shouldn't exist at all? |
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If the former, that's unrealistic. If the latter, why not? |
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|
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> Rules need to be in place to avoid conflict. Having some sort of voting |
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> structure for all the developers (this doesn't mean requiring everyone to vote) |
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> and not just the council or devrel makes a lot of sense for most things. If I |
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> don't like how someone is acting within the project there should be a vote and |
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> then see if that person is kicked out. No trial, no anything besides a vote. |
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> And if I lose I have to deal with it. Either stay with the project, or find |
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> something else. This solution just works. |
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|
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Do you really think just because 60% of the voting devs agreed on |
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something the other 40% will like it suddenly? Conflicts cannot be |
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avoided, other than shooting down all people which don't share your |
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point of view. |
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|
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> Gentoo should be a fun environment. The previous paragraph should be taken as |
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> a last resort. |
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|
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Gentoo is fun to me. |
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|
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> __Problem: GLEPs__ |
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> |
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> I dislike GLEPs. Usually they sit on the website for a long long time not |
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> doing anything. My vote (+1) is get rid of gleps and do everything by email |
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> and a vote by the developers. AFAIK, the board votes on the GLEPs. Bad Idea. |
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> It stifles things from getting done, and there is no ownership of who is going |
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> to implement the idea. |
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|
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I dislike them too. However, you're not addressing the issue IMHO. The |
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problem is not that the council votes on them. The problem is much more |
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that they are proposed to the whole dev community. Yes, you read right. |
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It's mostly a good thing, but it is also a show stopper. I once wrote up |
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a GLEP, sent it to the dev ml. Some people liked it, others wanted this |
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or that changed. I re-submitted it, and they criticised this and that |
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(which is a good thing!). So I fixed all the stuff they pointed out. In |
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the end, I had a GLEP. But what I documented was not the idea I wanted |
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to implement. So I lost interest. The GLEP got approved, but it's still |
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not implemented. I don't know if anybody is working on it, I wont, |
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because it's no longer what I once wanted to push forward. |
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|
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I would like it much more, if the people who are not affected by the |
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GLEP wouldn't read it at all anyway. Whenever something is discussed I'm |
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not involved in or affected by at all, I try to keep my mouth shut. I |
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just trust the guys who submitted it to do their job the right way. And |
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IMHO, this is exactly the point. Trust the others to do their job |
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seriously and well. We don't need a whole dev community voting on an |
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idea. Having everybody vote instead of a 7-headed council won't reduce |
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politicalness. And that was what all your mail was about, in the end. |
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|
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> __Problem: Voting__ |
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|
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Heh, really don't need to comment on that one anymore. ;) |
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|
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-- |
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Kind Regards, |
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|
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Simon Stelling |
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Gentoo/AMD64 Developer |
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-- |
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gentoo-dev@g.o mailing list |