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Peter <pete4abw@×××××××.net> posted |
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pan.2006.06.13.16.57.04.370327@×××××××.net, excerpted below, on Tue, 13 |
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Jun 2006 12:57:08 -0400: |
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|
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> On Tue, 13 Jun 2006 18:08:03 +0200, Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote: |
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> |
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>> On Monday 12 June 2006 12:57, Bo Ørsted Andresen wrote: |
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>>> On Monday 12 June 2006 12:42, Peter wrote: |
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>>> > All of a sudden, emerge -uD --newuse world is showing dozens of |
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>>> > ebuild that are replaced due to removed use flags. |
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>>> |
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>>> Look at the first section of[:] |
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>>> http://www.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/20060116-newsletter.xml |
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>> |
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>> As far as I can see this is not mentioned in either this weeks GWN, the |
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>> portage 2.1 release notes or the 2.1 news page [references]. I'm sure a |
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>> lot of people running stable don't remember the GWN from January. |
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>> Shouldn't this be mentioned somewhere now? |
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|
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Valid point. An informed Gentoo sysadmin is an effective Gentoo sysadmin. |
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Now sometimes I think Gentoo users (which are by another name Gentoo |
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sysadmins) shirk their responsibility to stay informed, but this wouldn't |
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seem to be one of those cases. Sure, it was there in January, but |
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forget the folks who forgot, what about folks who started on Gentoo since |
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then? The change should at a minimum be in the release notes. Additional |
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coverage would be good, but a responsible admin will certainly read the |
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release notes for a non-micro upgrade of something as central to system |
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administration as a package manager, and as this is a non-trivial change, |
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it should at the very minimum be there. |
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|
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Or put it this way. If it was in the release notes and I failed to see |
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it, I'd consider it my problem (I get to keep the pieces, as the saying |
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goes). If things start changing out from under me without notice despite my |
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reading of such documentation, the problem is with the package and its |
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documentation, and should be considered a bug. |
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|
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(FWIW, as a responsible sysadmin, I dealt with the changes when they were |
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first covered, back in January, so I could rest easy that the changes when |
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they occurred in the portage I was using wouldn't cause any issues. See |
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below. However, as mentioned, that doesn't do a thing for the poor guy, |
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responsible or not, who started with Gentoo in February and is still |
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getting his Gentoo legs under him, only to see all this change without any |
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warning.) |
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|
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> And, from a user pov, these changes are difficult to assess. It is not |
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> obvious what removing mysql, or db, or idn, or gmp might mean, |
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> especially if the user never put them there in the first place! And, how |
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> to you explain that openoffice-bin now has -java instead of java? Or, |
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> why gnupg lost bzip2? |
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|
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Here I can't agree. A responsible Gentoo admin will be verifying the USE |
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flags using --pretend or --ask before every package merge. As such, (s)he |
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should be reasonably familiar with them. Sure, (s)he may not know |
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specifically what each one does on every package that uses it, but he |
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should have no more trouble here than with the whole Gentoo concept and |
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use of USE flags in general. Portage does a good job of flagging changed |
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flags in bright yellow. If an admin isn't familiar with that particular |
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flag, a quick euse -i <flag> (euse is part of gentoolkit) will reveal both |
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its purpose, and whether it's a global or local USE flag (and if local, |
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how common its use is, global can be assumed to be quite commonly used |
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or it wouldn't be global). From there, it's the bog standard process of |
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deciding whether you want the flag on or off in make.conf, and dealing |
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with exceptions as they come up in package.use. As I said, any |
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responsible Gentoo sysadmin (that is, Gentoo user by another name) should |
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be comfortable with this process. If they aren't, there's the entirely |
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logical question of why they are using Gentoo in the first place. |
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|
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> Too many things occurred without explanation. |
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|
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Agreed. |
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|
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> What _I_ ended up doing was hacking make.conf and essentially put back |
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> all the changed -use flags until I could examine this further. |
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|
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Well, aside from the fact that a responsible sysadmin (well, if he had |
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been here since January to have read the coverage back then) would have |
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already verified his USE flags without the benefit of use.default (I long |
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ago did a search on all such files in the tree, deleted the ones I knew |
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weren't going to be part of my profile, backed up the others, and did an |
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emerge --pretend --newuse to figure out what I needed to fix, then after |
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fixing them added them to the rsync-exclude list so syncs wouldn't be |
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bringing them back), what you did was basically what any sane Gentoo admin |
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would have done. No big deal. Dealing with USE flags, both with the |
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initial merge of the package, and when any change, is simply part of the |
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job. IMO, a Gentoo admin unprepared to deal with that part of the job |
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should be asking himself serious questions about why he's using Gentoo in |
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the first place, and if another distribution wouldn't be better suited to |
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his wanting the distribution to make those decisions for him. There are |
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certainly many distributions out there willing to do so, but part of |
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Gentoo's distinctness is that it places this power AND responsibility in |
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the hands of the individual Gentoo sysadmin (aka Gentoo user). Someone |
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who doesn't want that... IMO shouldn't be using Gentoo, since that's part |
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of what /defines/ Gentoo. |
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|
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> Maybe this corrected an error from prior ebuilds or portage versions. |
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> But, from where I sit, the cure seems worse than the original problem. |
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|
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How so? It's making Gentoo more Gentoo-like. Taking a decision that |
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/was/ being made and changed arbitrarily based on what was merged, by the |
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distribution, and putting that decision back squarely in the hands of the |
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folks who have, by making the Gentoo choice in the first place, signified |
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that they WANT the choice of making that decision, AND the responsibility |
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for doing so. |
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|
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As I've said, this absolutely should be in the release notes, and |
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preferably should be in other coverage of the portage 2.1 changes as |
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well. There is IMO no excuse for it not being there. However, also |
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IMO, it shouldn't be a problem for any responsible Gentoo sysadmin, other |
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than asking the very reasonable question of why the change isn't covered |
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in the documentation. Other than that, it's simply doing the bog-standard |
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coping with routine USE flag changes, only there's a few more of them to |
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deal with than "routine" in this case. |
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|
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-- |
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Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. |
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"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- |
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and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman |
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|
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-- |
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