1 |
On Tue, May 16, 2006 at 05:47:42PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: |
2 |
> On Tue, 16 May 2006 09:16:18 -0700 Brian Harring <ferringb@×××××.com> |
3 |
> wrote: |
4 |
> | 1) changes to the eapi=0 ebuild standard; renaming of vars |
5 |
> | (PORTAGE_* -> PALUDIS_* namely) |
6 |
> |
7 |
> What eapi=0 standard? We emulate Portage internals where it's found to |
8 |
> be necessary, and don't otherwise. |
9 |
|
10 |
eapi=0 is what 2.1/2.05x supports. |
11 |
|
12 |
Features are fine, but for gentoo backwards compatibility *is* a |
13 |
concern, as such dropping the bits that you dislike (but existing |
14 |
ebuilds rely on) is a no go. |
15 |
|
16 |
> | dropping of all local vars during phase changes |
17 |
> |
18 |
> Again, we emulate Portage misfeatures only where it's found to be |
19 |
> necessary. |
20 |
See above... |
21 |
|
22 |
> | Mind you that's from a quick read through |
23 |
> | of your ebuild env reimplementation, stated the issues already and |
24 |
> | they still remain- incomplete support for the standard is one thing, |
25 |
> | changing it is another (y'all are doing the latter). |
26 |
> |
27 |
> What standard? Are you trying to say that Paludis should emulate |
28 |
> Portage's bugs, because the standard is "exactly what Portage does"? |
29 |
|
30 |
See above. Paludis (my view) is a rewrite of portage, rather then a |
31 |
reimplementation- as you've stated, dropping the stuff that you deem |
32 |
misfeatures. |
33 |
|
34 |
This is fine, but portage *is* what gentoo is based uses now, and |
35 |
what all ebuilds have been written to, as such you need to either |
36 |
support the misfeatures or have a bullet proof transition plan to deal |
37 |
with the things you decided to carve out. |
38 |
|
39 |
This is directly relevant because you now want to modify the |
40 |
gentoo-x86 repo to standards gentoo does not actually support. Call |
41 |
it "dropping the misfeatures", but it's the reality of backwards |
42 |
compatibility (something that has been kicking portage devs in the |
43 |
nuts for years now). |
44 |
|
45 |
|
46 |
> | 2) N profile inheritance- the parents change (N entries instead of |
47 |
> | one) needs to be protected so that specific profile is only usable by |
48 |
> | a package manager (whether portage, pkgcore or paludis) that actually |
49 |
> | does N parent inheritance. This is why N profile inheritance has |
50 |
> | never been added to portage (it's honestly a one line change in |
51 |
> | portage)- the change must not be introduced without protection, |
52 |
> | else the user's system set can become drastically reduced. It's not |
53 |
> | an easily addressable problem (all solutions sans a new profile |
54 |
> | directory leave open the potential for users to get bit), ignoring it |
55 |
> | is a no go. |
56 |
> |
57 |
> Uh, no. Any user who isn't using a package manager capable of multiple |
58 |
> inherits shouldn't use a multiple inherits profile. There's plenty of |
59 |
> precedent of intro |
60 |
|
61 |
Feature introduction is done via introducing support, then sitting on |
62 |
it for ~6 months to ensure folks don't get bit by it- notable |
63 |
exception was virtuals/* metapkg, although the buttload of bugs from |
64 |
it is a demonstration of *why* this route must be taken. |
65 |
|
66 |
This is also why eapi came about- faster introduction of compatibility |
67 |
breaking changes. |
68 |
|
69 |
Meanwhile, the precedent for changes to the tree (pkg manager related |
70 |
changes) is that of "don't break shit for users", introducing N parent |
71 |
inherit profiles into the tree still qualifies as a concern- as |
72 |
stated, you're after demoing capabilities, do it somewhere other then |
73 |
production data. |
74 |
|
75 |
|
76 |
> | 3) vdb CONTENTS change of dev/fif to misc. It's dumb, but that |
77 |
> | change renders vdb entries incompatible- iow, proper usage/conversion |
78 |
> | to paludis requires a new installation (or translation script, both |
79 |
> | to/from portage). |
80 |
> |
81 |
> Had you bothered to read the documentation, you'd know that we don't |
82 |
> claim nor desire VDB compatibility with Portage, and don't encourage |
83 |
> installs onto the same ROOT. |
84 |
|
85 |
Snarky response aside, I read the src (note the env screwups I've |
86 |
pointed out, and the fact y'all don't support try eclass unified |
87 |
overlays), and your documentation- the point was that paludis can |
88 |
only be used for new installs, and you're locked to paludis as your |
89 |
pkg manager at that point without a translation script. |
90 |
|
91 |
Trying to make it clear that paludis isn't something you try out for a |
92 |
bit, then revert back to portage- it's a full rebuild. That seriously |
93 |
limits the usefulness of the requested profile. |
94 |
|
95 |
|
96 |
> Because Paludis is now a viable alternative to Portage and can be used |
97 |
> to install and maintain a real system. We already support enough of the |
98 |
> "ebuild standard" and emulate enough of Portage's bugs to install |
99 |
|
100 |
Just because something is a viable alternative to portage doesn't |
101 |
mean the tree should be mutated to the alternative, especially when |
102 |
the alternative breaks standards that are in the tree already. |
103 |
|
104 |
Call it "misfeatures of portage", reality is that y'all introduce one |
105 |
insidious potential for bugs in 22k ebuilds via the env changes. |
106 |
|
107 |
Yes, paludis is a viable pkg manager- it's not viable to work with |
108 |
ebuilds written to portage (eapi=0) however because of those adhoc |
109 |
changes, at least for the userbase size gentoo currently sports. If |
110 |
it were breaks affecting 100 folk, hey, shit happens, but it's not. |
111 |
|
112 |
One thing I am curious about though, is how closely you've checked |
113 |
things are running properly- ebuilds have preserved their state in |
114 |
local vars saved in the env dump for well over 2 years, cutting that |
115 |
out on a whim for 22k ebuilds is kind of risky. It'll show at unmerge |
116 |
time and for binpkgs... |
117 |
|
118 |
|
119 |
> | > That's my proposal. The benefits I like to think are obvious. The |
120 |
> | > drawbacks are, as far as I can see, in tree size, which should be |
121 |
> | > minimal. |
122 |
> | |
123 |
> | Benefits of demo'ing for a minority (300 devs) must be balanced |
124 |
> | against risk (adding profiles that portage can eat itself on, the |
125 |
> | default virtual change doesn't address it |
126 |
> |
127 |
> Uh, a user changing to any incorrect profile will screw up their |
128 |
> system. Ever tried using an amd64 profile on x86? |
129 |
|
130 |
We can't do anything about that idiocy. |
131 |
|
132 |
That doesn't mean a profile should be added to the tree that portage |
133 |
is incapable of resolving properly however- simple example would be |
134 |
inheriting from two parents, one that's base arch agnostic defaults, |
135 |
other is arch specific modifications. |
136 |
|
137 |
If that profile were used by portage, it would pick up *strictly* the |
138 |
base arch agnostic defaults- this isn't "you're using the wrong |
139 |
profile dumb ass", this is "only the left most path is actually |
140 |
recursed". Again, this is why N profile inheritance isn't in portage- |
141 |
you cannot introduce it without backwards compatibility protection. |
142 |
Having the profile in the tree is an uneeded potential for bugs, yes |
143 |
it's obvious to a gentoo dev in seeing it when a bug is reported, but |
144 |
how many users know about the leftmost descent issue for portage? |
145 |
|
146 |
|
147 |
> | eapi incompatibility |
148 |
> |
149 |
> You mean "not emulating some of Portage's sillier bugs that very few |
150 |
> things rely upon anyway", right? |
151 |
|
152 |
See above. Renaming of PORTAGE_* -> PALUDIS_* vars doesn't strike me |
153 |
as "sillier bugs", strikes me as "we stamped it with our name, thus |
154 |
introducing subtle bugs into minor packages like perl". |
155 |
|
156 |
And yes, that's actually a valid example- easy to spot via just a |
157 |
simple grepping of the tree (I suggest you do so). |
158 |
|
159 |
|
160 |
> | vdb changes )- wrong place to be deploying incompatibilites that paludis |
161 |
> | introduces is into the production tree without appropriate |
162 |
> | containment/protection. |
163 |
> |
164 |
> Uh, VDB isn't part of the tree. Nor does it introduce any breakages for |
165 |
> existing users, except those who do something especially dumb. Even if |
166 |
> a user *does* change their profile to a Paludis profile, it won't cause |
167 |
> Portage to explode in such a way that switching profiles back won't fix |
168 |
> it. |
169 |
|
170 |
Point is, the tree (you're own words) is not a playground, nor is it a |
171 |
demoscene- don't introduce the potential for screwup in the tree |
172 |
without a damn good reason. |
173 |
|
174 |
Demo'ing capabilities doesn't qualify, do it in the overlay y'all |
175 |
have. |
176 |
|
177 |
|
178 |
> | The gain of the profile is that you can do a few new tricks for folks |
179 |
> | doing boostrapping experiments- why not just introduce an ebuild that |
180 |
> | sets up the new profile in a temp overlay? |
181 |
> |
182 |
> No, the gain of the profile is that it prepares the way for people to |
183 |
> move onto a package manager that doesn't suck. |
184 |
|
185 |
Figured as much, the problem is that you cannot convert a communal |
186 |
resource (gentoo-x86) to be paludis specific without the go ahead from |
187 |
the rest of the community. The tree must not be changed ad hoc to |
188 |
match whatever pkg manager the commiter likes (this includes pkgcore). |
189 |
Standards... |
190 |
|
191 |
Bluntly, you break compatibility with vdb/tree, paludis has no real |
192 |
future with gentoo beyond forking- requiring 100,000 users to |
193 |
reinstall because you don't want to do backwards compatibility is |
194 |
daft. |
195 |
|
196 |
The original discussion was about adding a paludis profile (not |
197 |
"portage sucks"), getting back to it, paludis is incompatible with |
198 |
portage at the actual ebuild level- considering that, why should the |
199 |
tree be modified to add a profile that's just going to introduce |
200 |
further breakage? |
201 |
|
202 |
~harring |