Gentoo Archives: gentoo-dev

From: Larry Lines <larry@××××××××××.com>
To: gentoo-dev@l.g.o
Subject: Re: [gentoo-dev] A User's View of the Code of Conduct
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 19:52:16
Message-Id: 1173901636.5350.24.camel@larrylines
In Reply to: [gentoo-dev] A User's View of the Code of Conduct by "M. Edward (Ed) Borasky"
1 I am replying to this email on the coc because I am pretty much coming
2 from the same place as a user. I haven't been that involved with the
3 community but I have been a user since 2002. I am a developer.
5 It's funny, because I was considering getting more involved with
6 development with Gentoo because I love Gentoo, so I joined the dev list
7 a couple of days ago. Just in time to see the meat of a really nasty
8 flame war. And I thought, "Wow maybe I don't want to be involved in
9 this at all. Hell maybe I don't really want to use this distro at all
10 anymore."
12 But I kept lurking the discussion here and now I think I have changed my
13 mind a bit. I even read the distrowatch article and some of the nastier
14 lklm list exchanges and I have to say. I don't care about the flame
15 wars. Have at it. And who cares what distrowatch has been saying. I
16 remember in 2003 and 2004 reading Debian lists trashing Gentoo as well.
17 Even ridiculing Gentoo. Gentoo is its own bird. You can say that there
18 are choices where other distributions are concerned, but there is no
19 choice for well-managed source distributions. There is only Gentoo. It
20 attracts people that want to do something different and are not afraid
21 of getting into the muck up to their necks. So don't hold back on how
22 you really feel. Let 'em have it. Sling some mud.
24 I was the moderator for a message board for artists and musicians for a
25 site I created for a couple of years back in 2000 and 2001. At the
26 time, somehow a couple of topics came up that started a flame war that
27 lasted for months. Philosophy of art and music and people just jumping
28 down each other's throats. I even had some philosophy professors join
29 the board and started some long lasting threads. But people kept
30 getting hurt and sending me email asking what I was going to do. I
31 realized that I was going to have to start making the interactions more
32 complicated with programming if I was going to moderate. I reprogrammed
33 the site and implemented some rules and everybody left. I still run the
34 site but there is very little interest. People wanted a place to argue
35 and I killed it.
37 I say forget the CoC. Let the flamers flame on. I think with as vague
38 as people seem to want to keep the CoC it is better just to deal with it
39 in a parliamentary way. When someone goes too far, it will be clear to
40 everyone and everyone will know that they need to get rid of that
41 person. And there is nothing wrong with Gentoo. I learned Linux by
42 installing and hacking and suffering over Gentoo. Exactly one year
43 after installing Gentoo, I was in Hong Kong building and programming for
44 a Linux cluster. There is no other distribution that compresses the
45 learning curve like that. I still can't figure out what is supposed to
46 be easier about running Redhat or Fedora. Sure installation is easier
47 but then you don't know where anything is and you can't tweak anything
48 easily.
50 So maybe I will stick around and maybe I will find a niche to help out
51 with that I can feel passionately enough to start a flame war.
53 Larry Lines
55 On Wed, 2007-03-14 at 10:43 -0700, M. Edward (Ed) Borasky wrote:
56 > I joined this list mostly to talk about the proposed code of conduct.
57 > Let me state the context up front:
58 >
59 > 1. Some of you know I am a loyal Gentoo user. I run three
60 > "testing-level" (pure ~x86 with an occasional local package mask when
61 > something croaks) systems, I beta-test stuff I'm interested in, etc. I'd
62 > volunteer as a developer if I had the time to do more than test stuff
63 > and all that. Maybe when I retire from my day job. :)
64 >
65 > 2. I don't have any visibility into what exactly is going on in the
66 > developer portion of the Gentoo community. But I can emphatically state
67 > that it *doesn't* seem to be showing up as a reduction in quality of
68 > what's coming onto my systems when I emerge a package! I don't run
69 > anything else, like Ubuntu, Fedora, openSuSE or Debian, so I can't
70 > compare Gentoo with the others.
71 >
72 > 3. I *have* read the dire comments on Distrowatch, but not much of the
73 > auxiliary blogging. I don't visit the IRC channels and I don't in
74 > general inhabit the forums. I am on quite a few of the mailing lists
75 > and, given that I run ~x86, a frequent visitor to Bugzilla. If the dire
76 > predictions are true -- if Gentoo dies -- most likely I will switch to
77 > rPath/Conary and build my own distro, rather than leaping on the Fedora,
78 > openSuSE, or Ubuntu/Debian bandwagon.
79 >
80 > On to the code of conduct. My belief is that it's entirely too weak! I'd
81 > prefer a strict "no asshole" code. Screw up once -- get a stern
82 > reprimand and a 30-day suspension of all privileges. Screw up twice and
83 > it's bye-bye forever! I think there are something like hundreds of
84 > thousands of talented open source developers out there, ranging in age
85 > from maybe 13 to mid-70s or maybe even higher. There are many more of
86 > "us" than there are positions on *all* of the major community open
87 > source projects -- Linux itself, GNU, Apache, Gentoo, Debian, Perl,
88 > Python, Ruby, etc. Gentoo can afford to be choosy. I personally think
89 > Gentoo can't afford *not* to be choosy, given that it has little (if
90 > any) corporate support.
91 >
92 > Finally, let me add that I've never personally experienced what I would
93 > consider unacceptable treatment from a Gentoo community member,
94 > developer, user, interested bystander, etc. Perhaps if I had, it would
95 > change my views. But, as the saying goes, "where there's smoke, there's
96 > fire," and I'd prefer not to inhale the smoke. :)
97 >
98 > --
99 > M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
100 >
101 >
102 > If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given rabbits fire.
103 >
105 --
106 gentoo-dev@g.o mailing list


Subject Author
Re: [gentoo-dev] A User's View of the Code of Conduct Andrej Kacian <ticho@g.o>
Re: [gentoo-dev] A User's View of the Code of Conduct "M. Edward (Ed) Borasky" <znmeb@×××××××.net>