Re: [gentoo-dev] Enterprise Installer [was "LWE Aftermath" on -core]

[Joshua J. Berry]

On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 03:00:31PM -0400, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Fri, 2004-08-06 at 14:06, Joshua J. Berry wrote:
> > - Automated setup and install (a la Solaris' Jumpstart).  This involves several
> >   aspects, such as the creation of a custom profile, precompiling binaries,
> >   automatic partitioning/formatting, automatic configuration, tying into
> >   Catalyst to create an appropriate boot CD to run the install, ...
>
> In most cases, a profile is not needed.  The profile only specifies the
> "system" portion and default virtuals.  While I can see how some would
> want it, I don't think it would be a requirement.

No, a profile a la Gentoo's Portage profile probably isn't ... I just used the
term "profile" to mean a specific set of installed packages and configuration
options (e.g. have a "mailserver" profile, a "webserver" profile and perhaps a
"workstation" profile).

You could certainly use Portage profiles for that purpose though, and I think it
might be a good place to start, at least until requirements dictate we find
something better.

> The pre-compiled
> binaries are a must.  I could see this working in many ways, all of
> which would need to be discussed.  A proper "rollout" tool would not
> require a CD, so there would be no need to involve catalyst for such a
> task, though there's no reason to not allow it.  I would instead see
> catalyst taking the role of creating the binaries.

I guess I don't quite understand what Catalyst's purpose is then.  Is it not to
create boot CDs for installation?

> Installing new
> machines would be carried out using industry standard methods, such as
> PXE to boot an image that downloads from TFTP and loads up a NFS root
> with an installer image.

I like this idea better than a boot CD, but never having tried it myself, I
don't know how it would be setup or how practical it would be for users that are
just interested in setting up, say, a few machines at their small business in
this way.

...

> > - Allow users to create and maintain a custom Portage tree (derived from our own
> >   base tree) which they can use to administer their other machines.
>
> This is too simple.  We already provide everything a user would want to
> be able to do this.  Perhaps I am missing something.  Could you
> enlighten us a bit more on this?

Some admins may wish to perform their own QA on the Portage tree before pushing
things out to their userbase, or perhaps create custom ebuilds for proprietary
software they have purchased and want to run on Gentoo.

Some people have also requested the ability to deliver a stripped-down version
of the tree (e.g. removing server-ish ebuilds from trees that will only be used
with workstations), so that it's harder for those of their end users who have
root to do something silly like install a DHCP server on a workstation.

Also, stripped down Portage trees are easier for them to distribute internally,
especially if the distribution is happening over a WAN as it might in larger
companies.

>
> > - Probably something else I forgot. ;)
>
> A stable portage tree for each release would be a requirement.

By "stable", are you talking about the snapshots a la Gentoo Enterprise?  (i.e.
Take a stable snapshot every N months and release it.)  I think we would
probably be OK without this, at least for those admins who choose to do their
own QA.  After all, staying fairly consistently up-to-date is another advantage
to Gentoo which some may wish to take advantage of.

>
> > While most of these are possible with shell scripts and the like, there are no
> > official Gentoo tools to do this.  I think it would be great for Gentoo to
> > create some, because I think this is one area in which we can really shine.
>
> I agree.  At the same time, I realize that Gentoo is still very young,
> and we have a long way to go and a lot of growing up to do.  The main
> thing I notice about a lot of people is they want to take Gentoo and to
> turn it into some huge enterprise solution, but they don't want to
> invest the money nor manpower to do so.

I have no money, but I do have time (at least during the summer), and I have a
certain amount of personal interest.  (I'd like my school to start using Gentoo,
and I think having a tool like this might convince them.)

If enough people are willing to work on this, we should start (yet) a(nother)
project.

> Red Hat has capital.  They have
> employees.  Every single one of us are volunteers, and honestly, until
> that changes, there is no way we will ever be able to meet the needs of
> the enterprise, simply because corporate customers will want things from
> us that are not fun nor interesting, which means they will not be things
> we will want to do.

This means--and this has been brought up repeatedly before--there needs to be
some sort of for-profit company, separate from the non-profit, that has at least
a few full-time Gentoo devs on its staff.  Or so it seems to me.

There may even be (and probably are) a set of people out there offering Gentoo
to their clients as part of their business.  Perhaps we should start keeping a
list of these people.

>
> I believe that to achieve these goals, we have to start by taking baby
> steps.  Perhaps we should bring up some things at the next manager's
> meeting?  To be honest, it looks like the first steps are going to be
> the easiest, and at the same time the hardest.  We have to decide where
> we want to go and lay out a plan.  The hardest part is we have to stick
> to that plan and not falter.

The first step is always to figure out where you want to go ... I think we're
doing that now.  Then we just need to break the problem down into small pieces.

If anyone is interested, I can perhaps draft up some thoughts/the beginnings of
a raodmap for getting this done.

> > So ... what are your thoughts on this?
>
> We need to move on it, and not talk about it, then let the topic die off
> and forget about it as has been going on for months now.

OK.  Let's go. :)

>
> > On a related note, avenj did mention the Installer project to me, and gave me a
> > link to their CVS, but it hasn't been touched in a few months.  Anyone know what
> > their status is, and what specifically they're trying to accomplish?
>
> I believe their charter was to create a nice installer that could be
> used to install Gentoo in various fashion, using GRP as a base and
> allowing for rapid deployment of servers and workstations based on
> pre-defined criteria.

That sounds like it's the first (big) step then.  Let's get an installer
working.

-- 

-----------------------------------------
Joshua J. Berry

"I haven't lost my mind -- it's backed up on tape somewhere."
    -- /usr/games/fortune

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