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On 19:56 Fri 13 Mar , Thilo Bangert wrote: |
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> Donnie Berkholz <dberkholz@g.o> said: |
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> > On 19:06 Wed 11 Mar , Thilo Bangert wrote: |
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> > > > > the presumption seems to be, that as a dev one has to be |
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> > > > > available via IRC. it has long been my feeling that Gentoo as |
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> > > > > a project could realize more of its potential by better |
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> > > > > integrating people who dont do IRC. |
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> > |
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> > I think IRC helps to build a more tightly knit community and, |
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> > because of this, is very important to Gentoo. The less close we are |
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> > as a community, the more free we feel to be hostile because we don't |
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> > see the folks on the other end of the big tube as real people. It's |
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> > much like a technique that militaries use during wars to |
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> > de-personalize the enemy, except with the Internet, we start that |
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> > way and have to apply effort to grow closer. |
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> |
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> so you say, that presumption is ok? |
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|
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Honestly, yes. Gentoo development (and users too!) is a very |
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IRC-centered community, and I think IRC is one of the reasons it is a |
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strong development community. Parts of the forums are similarly critical |
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to building a strong user community (Gentoo Chat, Off the Wall), as is |
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the Gentoo Universe for developers. |
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|
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IRC is a lot like this mailing list in some ways. Even as developers, |
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you can choose not to participate, and consequently you have to deal |
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with the decisions you chose not to be part of making when you hear |
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about them after the fact on -dev-announce. |
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|
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> i agree 100% with what you say, but it doesnt (at least directly) |
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> address my concern. i think IRC is an excellent medium - the problems |
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> i see, though, are related to the fact that IRC requires all |
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> stakeholders to be available at the time of discussion. for a |
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> multitude of reasons this can almost never be guaranteed. also, even |
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> if we did have IRC logs, the signal to noise ratio on IRC is |
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> devastating (at least in my experience). |
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|
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I agree that all stakeholders (to use your term) ought to participate |
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before a decision, but even on IRC this doesn't mean they all have to be |
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present simultaneously. In my experience, a few stakeholders are around |
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at a time, and they're able to have a lot of very fast real-time |
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discussion that would be vastly slowed down by a mailing list. Then a |
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few hours later, maybe a couple of the same people will be around and a |
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couple new stakeholders. The new ones catch up and have some more fast |
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back-and-forth. |
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|
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> for those reasons, i would like to see more bridge-building between |
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> the worlds. i didnt want to give examples, as i dont like pointing |
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> fingers, but here it is: relengs discussion to switch to weekly |
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> autobuilds. presumably there hast been one, but i cant find it in the |
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> list archives. not on gentoo-dev@g.o and not on gentoo-releng@g.o - |
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> where else should i look? IRC perhaps - well, where are the logs? |
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> interestingly, the announcement of the switch has a pointer to the |
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> releng project page, which does not even mention the IRC channel. |
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|
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I agree that important decisions deserve summaries instead of hiding out |
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anywhere, whether it's buried in IRC discussions or archived |
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mailing-list threads! |
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|
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-- |
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Thanks, |
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Donnie |
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|
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Donnie Berkholz |
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Developer, Gentoo Linux |
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Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com |