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On 4/24/07, William L. Thomson Jr. <wltjr@g.o> wrote: |
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> On Sun, 2007-04-22 at 21:30 +0100, robert burrell donkin wrote: |
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> > On 4/22/07, William L. Thomson Jr. <wltjr@g.o> wrote: |
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> > > |
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> > > From what I have seen and heard that relationship ended some time ago. I |
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> > > do not believe any Sun peeps are committing to apache/jakarta projects. |
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> > |
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> > jakarta has been split into top level projects |
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> |
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> Not sure about that statement. Jakarta projects like tomcat have been |
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> moved to top level apache projects now. Jakarta is like an incubator for |
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> applications before they become top level/apache projects. |
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|
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this happens in the incubator project now |
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|
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> > there is plenty of activity elsewhere at apache involving committers |
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> > with links to sun. see for example |
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> > http://incubator.apache.org/projects/river.html, |
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> > http://db.apache.org/jdo/, http://shale.apache.org/ (i could do on but |
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> > won't). however, i'm not sure how many of those work on apache code as |
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> > part of their job. |
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> |
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> That was my point. To the best of my understanding very few if any Sun |
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> employees contribute to Apache/Jakarta projects. |
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|
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i know of a reasonable number but i'm not sure how many of these are |
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employed by sun to work on these projects full time. apache is a good |
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forum to develop applications which balance contributions between |
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different corporations. sun still contributes to a number of these and |
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has a long history of supporting apachecons, donating hardware and so |
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on. |
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|
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> Sun employees |
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> contributing to the FOSS java world are doing so via java.net or what |
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> ever that's called. |
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|
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AIUI that's the primary mechanism by which sun develops the community |
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open source it leads. it's somewhere between apache and eclipse in |
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social organization but is run by sun. |
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|
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> Pretty sure it's not part of the JCP but might be. |
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|
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AIUI the JCP is a an organisation founded by sun but run at arm's |
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length. decisions are taken by two committees representing the |
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membership. there are elections but the structure favours incumbents |
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and major industrial players. apache is one of the incumbent major |
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players. sun has a special position in that it is a permanent member |
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and has a veto. |
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|
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membership is free to individuals. corporations pay. |
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|
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the JCP did not start out as a particularly open organisation but has |
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come a long way after significant pressure by apache and others. the |
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JCP is in the middle of a process to re-examine the way that new |
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specifications are developed. |
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|
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apache's position is well known to all the players. however, opinions |
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from other FOSS folks haven't really been heard. if people can stand |
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the NDAs, they could sign up as members and work inside the system or |
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just make a noise (sun is really focussed on GNU/linux ATM). |
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|
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> > J2EE1.4 (2.4) RI contains tomcat but i don't think there's a separate |
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> > RI for the servlet container specification |
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> |
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> Ok, then Tomcat is the reference up to Servlet API 2.4/JSP API 2.0. |
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> Still pretty sure that is not the case for Tomcat 6.x Servlet API |
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> 2.5/JSP API 2.1. |
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|
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the RI for 2.5 is glassfish |
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|
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> > > Seems there were some differences there amongst developers, and it has |
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> > > been pretty much completely severed. |
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> > |
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> > most of the 3.x/4.x tomcat developers have moved onto new open source |
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> > projects. i don't know of any who are working on servlet containers |
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> > anymore outside apache. |
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> |
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> Like other containers? Resin, Jetty, etc? |
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|
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nope - new topics or new languages :-) |
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|
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> > > I also noticed in glassfish some |
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> > > sun-commons stuff, so not sure if they are duplicating that as well. |
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> > |
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> > most likely that's just part of their effort to open sourcing most of |
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> > their code base |
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> |
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> No it seems to me to be a result of the fork. Now there will be apache |
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> commons stuff and sun commons stuff. |
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|
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not sure i'd really describe it as a fork but i'll not push this point |
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|
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> > the fork really happened back with the tomcat 3.0 donation. the apache |
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> > implementation has been independent since then. |
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> |
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> No there has been another much more recent fork. Although I am not sure |
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> how much is out in public space. Seems there is a current dispute over |
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> licenses and etc wrt to Harmony |
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> http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,130574/article.html |
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|
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the harmony's story is quite different. sun won't offer apache open |
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source compatible terms. apache is a charity and can only ship open |
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source. sun should have know this. |
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|
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> Just to show recent and current rifts. How deep this goes, hard to say, |
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> but seems. |
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> |
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> Seems this stuff started long ago though |
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> http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/10_998071 |
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|
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this is the original apache-sun agreement over the JCP. it took apache |
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a long time to convince sun that they needed open source. |
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http://java.sys-con.com/read/286924.htm is good from the JCP |
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perspective. |
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|
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though it's sometimes a long hard road, sun does listen. now |
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(http://java.sys-con.com/read/299987.htm) is a good opportunity for |
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the wider FOSS community to influence the development of the JCP. |
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|
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- robert |
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-- |
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