Re: [gentoo-java] Want to affect how JSRs are developed?

[robert burrell donkin]

On 4/25/07, Dalibor Topic <robilad@×××××.org> wrote:
> Dalibor Topic wrote:
>
> > How about that?
>
> I should explain why the tone I used was rather harsh & cynical (and
> apologize for it).

(and apologies for my grammatical obscurity: i meant to suggest either
make noise about the right future direction for the JCP, or join up
and vote. still, at least my mistakes produced some interesting
comments.)

<snip>valid points</snip>

> * no one can force the spec leads to do the right things, even if the
> whole EC was replaced instantly.

this one is solvable. spec leads just need to be forced to issue
public licenses up front at the start of the process rather than
relying on hub-and-spoke contracts with participants.

> In practice, the current JCP system allows the spec leads to run a
> perfectly transparent JSR, with an open source implementation, TCK and
> specs without clickthoughs, like Doug Lea did for the concurrency JSR.
> The problem is that only a handful of spec leads are able to make such
> things happen.

+1

> Fortunately, there has been a recent strong trend among spec leads to
> work towards transparency, though, and in general there has been a trend
> towards open source RIs. I see the current results of the java.net poll
> as a confirmation for those spec leads that they are moving in the right
> direction, and I'm very happy to see them lead by example, and work on
> turning the system around from the inside.

+1

> I don't think that the confrontational 'let's make noise inside the JCP'
> approach would work for us who aren't on the EC, and that's pretty much
> everyone.

+1

but FOSS people setting out better ways to run standards processes may
well make a difference. in particular, the downstream perspective is
completely missing from the current debate.

> What works, in my experience, is changing the environment from the
> outside in which the JCP EC and its members operate, such that their
> interests and the interests of the Java & GNU/Linux communites are more
> closely aligned, and encouraging good behaviour.
>
> It would help if more JCP members started leading by example, and made
> sure that all the JSRs they participate in have open source RIs, open
> source TCKs, etc. In that regard ASF could have a role to play inside
> the JCP in assisting companies that have close ties to it via its
> membership in the transition, and providing them with advice & guidance
> on opening up their JSRs.

all that's needed is a good, well explained model: it's doesn't need
to be apache doing the talking or done in private. almost anyone who
has been deeply involved with an open source project (or the IEFT or
W3C) for a number of years could mentor a specification lead about
running a successful an open process.

> The ASF could also try to make 'noise' inside the system, but I fail to
> see how that could lead to a useful outcome.

apache's been doing this for the most part of a decade with only mixed success

> I'd rather suggest that the
> ASF gets going working on creating open source TCKs for all RIs
> implemented under its spec leadership (the whole XML & WS-* stuff,
> Tomcat, and all that).

i can't find any spec lead by apache on http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/all

i agree that there are many specifications which were and are strong
influenced by apache ethos. apache has also been home to a lot of
reference implementations. but this is personal, not official.

- robert
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