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On Fri, 2007-12-28 at 10:35 -0800, Chris Gianelloni wrote: |
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> On Fri, 2007-12-28 at 11:05 -0500, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote: |
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> <snip> |
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> |
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> While I find your ideas engaging, there's really no point in discussing |
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> them. |
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|
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Still holding out that hope can be restored via effort. Just don't want |
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to put forth effort without discussion and authorization. |
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|
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> Your grasp on how things work currently is quite skewed and |
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> you're making massive leaps based off those faulty assumptions. |
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|
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Well many state time and time again things presently don't work. So not |
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sure why I need to grasp that fully to come up with another way that |
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might work. But I am trying to grasp how things are. There just seems to |
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be abnormal separation and I am unable to find a similar model for |
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comparison. |
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|
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> Let me simplify some things: |
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> |
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> The Gentoo Foundation is *independent* of Gentoo Linux. Please, get |
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> this one in your head immediately. The *only* thing the Gentoo |
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> Foundation does is retain the legal filings and standing of the |
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> Foundation itself and act as a container for funds and intellectual |
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> property. |
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|
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It's that separation I don't agree with and I think has failed. |
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|
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> The Foundation has no say in the direction of Gentoo Linux, |
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> and vice versa. This was by design to keep the Foundation, which is |
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> allowed membership outside of Gentoo Linux, from ever being able to |
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> "take over" the distribution. |
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|
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Ok, so let me understand this. The foundation has nothing to do with |
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Gentoo Linux. But is legally responsible for it's actions? With no ties |
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in between the two managing entities? |
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|
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> If you think the Foundation will change any of this, you're delusional. |
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|
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Not sure what you mean there. I do think a functioning NPO business |
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model for Gentoo would have the potential to bring about change. |
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|
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> This all must be changed from within Gentoo Linux, by Gentoo Linux. |
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|
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And where and what am I? I am in Gentoo Linux, nothing to do with the |
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foundation per the separations mentioned previous. And trying to bring |
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about change there. Just seem to only find bitterness with the way |
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things are and anything but things to be hopeful for. |
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|
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> In |
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> other words, this if fodder for gentoo-council, not gentoo-nfp. The |
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> Gentoo Foundation is, once again, nothing more than a container for |
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> legal and financial responsibilities. The entire idea was to have an |
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> entity that was independent of the distribution so that the developers |
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> had no need to concern themselves with legal matters. |
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|
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And again I don't agree with that design. It was enacted way before my |
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time. Those that came up with that structure are obviously over it. Much |
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less who in their right mind would want to voluntarily be legally and |
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financially responsible to a bunch of rogue volunteer devs managed by a |
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completely separate entity. That's craziness. |
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|
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> You're proposing "solutions" without identifying the problem(s) you're |
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> wanting to solve. |
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|
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What solutions? I have proposed a very abstract theory of a potential |
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model. In which creating such model would identify any problems and |
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solutions for them. It's very typical in taking an existing entity in |
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new directions, or creating one from scratch. |
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|
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Your telling me every business plan/model starts with identifying the |
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problems? |
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|
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> If this was not your intent, then you'll probably |
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> want to *stop* giving specific examples of how you think things should |
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> be done when you cannot even describe what potential problems with the |
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> current structure you're trying to resolve. |
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|
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I threw out some random thoughts for specifics when pressed for them. It |
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wasn't my intention to discuss those at the time. Others brought that up |
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and pressed there. So I came back with some thoughts, rather than |
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nothing. Called out for not citing specifics, then called out again for |
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the specifics. Damned either way, but am still playing the game. |
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|
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> This is compounded by your |
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> mixing of "Foundation" and "distribution" as if they are the same thing. |
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> They are not. They have independent problems sets that need to be |
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> investigated and resolved independently. |
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|
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I am mixing them because I believe they should be one. The separation |
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clearly doesn't seem to be working. I can't find other similar working |
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models to compare, to identify our problems with that model. |
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|
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> Did you ever think that the project isn't "moving forward" because those |
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> that have the time, energy, and ability to do so gave up a long time ago |
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|
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Yes, and should we just leave it at that and all go home? Or lay the |
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foundation for new ones to come, and maybe others return? Since my time |
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and observing those that leave. I question most reasons short of lack of |
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time due to personal things or etc. |
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|
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> because we've allowed those that do *not* have those things an equal |
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> voice and they're drowning out those that can actually make a |
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> difference? |
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|
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Agreed and that's why I wanted to be more silent observing to learn, |
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rather than being vocal. But in the absence of anyone else being vocal. |
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I am stepping up pre-maturely. |
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|
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> Ever wonder why *nobody* wants to run for trustees? Ever |
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> wonder why almost none of the previous Council ran for re-election? |
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|
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Yes, so why continue one with positions and roles no one wants to fill? |
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That's obviously a sign of the existing model not working. On other |
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front, even with the separation. |
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|
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That said some that I voted for on the current council like |
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Petteri/Betelgeuse, had no hesitation to run or etc. For any reason, |
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much less experience of previous council. |
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|
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Heck look at Mike/vapier, if he didn't want to run again or be on |
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council. He wouldn't be. Maybe he is not ecstatic about being on the |
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council. He is for the second year in a row, or maybe longer. Maybe some |
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others, those two were just on the top of my mind. |
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|
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> Noticed that we're dropping more and more experienced developers every |
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> day for other projects where they have less politics to deal with than |
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> Gentoo? |
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|
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And when will that change? Will that change if we do nothing? We are |
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shedding them anyway. What's the harm with at least attempting to take |
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things a new direction and improving things? Or just sit on the ship, |
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watching others bail off and swim. Waiting for the ship to sink so we |
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are forced to swim. |
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|
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> Now, you think that by involving developers *more* in what is going on |
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> that it'll make people happy? |
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|
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What makes you think developers would be more involved? Maybe the ones |
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that were both developers and employees would be. But those that are |
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just volunteer developers, as they are now, would likely remain |
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unchanged. Just with some leadership, and maybe funding for any |
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resources or etc. |
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|
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> Umm... Listen, just because people don't bother to actually use the |
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> mechanisms in place, doesn't mean they're ineffective. |
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|
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Um use is usually a good sign of both effectiveness and worth. Why do |
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some excellent TV shows get canceled? Even the most brilliant inventions |
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must be used or popular, or fall aside. Or technologies given up on or |
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given away, the mouse :) |
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|
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Or even technologies like when At&t funded a paint program for pen point |
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operating systems. Then withdrew funding due to lack of a perceived |
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future. Before Palm became a company and pen point OS/devices were every |
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where. Much less that app went on to become Flash ;) |
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|
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Even if what is in place is the most bitchen the world has ever seen. No |
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one is working it, so how bitchen can it be really? Maybe some retooling |
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and it can live up to it's perceived effectiveness and worth. |
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|
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> Are you a Foundation member? |
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|
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Was thinking about running in summer of 08, once I had 2 full years |
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under my belt. Also if I am nominated. Guess I could have run this past |
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summer, but wanted to be a bit more experienced. Didn't want to get in |
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the way, or stop others that did have more experience and more to |
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contribute. |
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|
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> Thought about holding a vote of your own? |
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|
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I would if I had the power or ability to, without stepping on others |
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toes or etc. I am not inquiring for others to enact. I am looking to |
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take action myself. But there is only so much I can do, and have the |
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power to do. |
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|
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> After |
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> all, as a Foundation member, you're entitled to question any and every |
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> decision made by the trustees and they can be overridden by a vote. |
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|
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So no one else has any influence there? |
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|
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> YOU |
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> are the oversight. So yes, every single Foundation member has failed in |
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> their job, not just the trustees. Gentoo is full of self-absorbed |
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> people who enjoy pointing fingers at everybody else to have things done, |
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> but when it comes to stepping up and taking some responsibility |
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> themselves, you suddenly don't hear from them. |
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|
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Great, so now what? I am not looking to point fingers, and I really |
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don't care who didn't do what. All I do care about is what needs to be |
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done, and who is doing it now. So I know where best to spend my time and |
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effort to be most efficient and effective as a whole. |
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|
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> Given the projects that I am a member of that I see dying/understaffed, |
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> such as PR, Events, GWN, Trustees, QA, x86, amd64, ppc... I wonder how |
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> we function, at all. Oh, right, we added some new VDR app, rather than |
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> fixing those bugs in glibc... |
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|
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Well other areas are doing well like Java, and I am trying to spread |
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that to other areas. Not sure if it was my influence there or what. But |
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things are doing Ok, which seems to be considerably better than the rest |
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of Gentoo as a whole. |
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|
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> I'm long past the point where I think "Gentoo" needs to be scrapped. |
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|
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Ok, so why waste your time? I understand how you feel, but should your |
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feelings and experience stop me and others from trying to improve |
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things? Seems like if you didn't care shouldn't matter either way no? |
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|
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Either way, I very much value you input from your experiences. But that |
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does not replace or override my own direct experiences. |
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|
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> It is a failed experiment. |
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|
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I think the oversight and management structures have failed, but surely |
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not the project as a whole. New people come to Gentoo every day, as |
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users, contributors, developers, etc. The failures are at the top, not |
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the bottom in the trenches. The top has failed, but surely not the whole |
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thing. I am sure the media would love lines like the above. Much less |
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from those in certain positions. |
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|
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> Give it to the little ricers who still seem to |
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> care about the name. Gentoo's name hasn't been worth anything for well |
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> over two years. It's not worth keeping a hold of, as all it gives to |
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> most people is negative connotations and years of baggage that we really |
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> don't want or need. |
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|
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That's just crazy. Two years ago Java on Gentoo was NOTHING like it is |
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now. Much less there was barely 2-3 people futzing around with it. Much |
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less being serious about maintaining it and pushing it all forward. |
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While I get the changed experienced on the Java subproject/team has not |
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happened else where. Doesn't change what's going on there, or preventing |
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it from spreading to the rest of gentoo. |
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|
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I have only been around gentoo as a contributor for 2 years, and a dev |
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for almost 1.5. So what does the above say about my contributions, time, |
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effort etc. I surely could have spent that else where. |
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|
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> Umm... You're comparing apples and oranges. The USA has 3 branches of |
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> the same government, designed to balance each other. Gentoo has 2 |
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> separate entities responsible for specific aspects of Gentoo with no |
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> oversight and no overlap. They are completely independent. |
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|
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And that is a failed concept and model. Which I am still looking for |
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others similar to it. That idea and model should have been contested and |
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I would say seems to stem from those thinking about things ideally. But |
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not having established businesses directly and the practicalities and |
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realities there. |
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|
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After all the most important step in most anything is follow through. |
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Which whom ever came up with and enacted the present model. Didn't do or |
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something. But that's moot and in the past. I am looking for what can be |
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done today going forward. Which includes putting scrapping our current |
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structure and model on the table. |
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|
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> > And there is no one else to care about the foundation if the devs don't. |
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> |
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> ...exactly... so why are we even bothering? |
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|
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Because I am a dev, and I care. I will find others like me and recruit |
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them as well. |
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|
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> > Nor is there anyone responsible for the duties the foundation didn't |
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> > perform. Does the council take over when the foundation falls short, or |
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> > visa versa? |
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> |
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> No. The members of the Foundation are responsible... every single one |
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> of them. See, I'm sick of this bullshit attitude of trying to blame the |
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> trustees for everything. We've been trying. The problem is simply that |
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> nobody knows what they want and nobody is willing to do anything but |
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> bitch and complain like a bunch of little girls. |
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|
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I am not blaming the trustees. Oversight is not blame. Just means |
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someone is responsible to take over if someone else fall short. More of |
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a fail safe, than blame mechanism. |
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|
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I am not looking to bitch or blame. I have a shovel in hand and am ready |
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to dig. I can do allot rather quickly but again don't want to do things |
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I am not authorized for. |
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|
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Like I could do a legal filing for Gentoo as a NPO in Florida in |
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minutes. I could take care of other things as well. But I don't want to |
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do anything with discussing it first. Much less am not really the person |
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who should be doing that. Not on the foundation, not a trustee, etc. |
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|
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> > But I don't recall much of a push or talk about the foundation elections |
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> > in general. Which normally is done to spark nominations and the rest. |
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> |
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> We did. Nobody paid attention. |
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|
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I did, but from my perception. Due the the difficulty, lack of people to |
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hold the election, and etc with the council one. The other fell to the |
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way side. Again election officials burned out, due to bs with the |
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council election. |
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|
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> > Like what was done for the council elections. It's allot of work, and I |
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> > think maybe those with the ability to hold and administrate the |
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> > elections. Barely pulled off the council election, and were burned out |
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> > there. No clue where that would put us for next year. |
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> > |
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> > I guess elections are a responsibility of the ? :) |
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> |
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> Foundation members... |
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|
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So will we ever be having one? Not sure devs can enact this or not? |
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Should I post to -core about this and see about getting a election for |
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foundation members going. |
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|
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-- |
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William L. Thomson Jr. |
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Gentoo/Java |