Re: [gentoo-nfp] Gentoo NPO Business Model thoughts

[William L. Thomson Jr.]

On Mon, 2007-12-17 at 14:37 -0800, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Sun, 2007-12-16 at 11:37 -0500, William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:
> > While it might be a great concept. What about the SFC is there really to
> > trust? IMHO We need much more info than what they provide on their
> > website. Many questions still unanswered. Even with answers, their
> > impact on projects over years is still unknown.
>
> What questions?

Well like given that Gentoo kinda doesn't exist legally as a business
entity atm. Since the New Mexico filings have expired. Kinda curious
about legal ownership of Trademark or etc. If that is an issue with
joining them or not. Or how they plan to deal with all that.

Time frame, if the time ever comes to leave. Sure it's an open door
policy but doesn't seem to have any time frame. Legal things can take
forever. More so if one side is uncooperative. Which could be possible
since they will dictate status and legal aspects of any entity they
transfer the assets and etc to.

Is it possible for Gentoo to get it's own tax return filed, and not be
part of their combined return? Can Gentoo be a NPO but not one that
people can donate to with them still managing the NPO and foundational
things?

Is there a limit to hours of legal counsel and etc?

What all areas of law will they handle? 

>   You do realize that we've been in contact with these
> people for *months* now, right?

Yes from what I was told at LWE and etc. Not to pester or etc but months
have passed and things are?

>   We've asked them an awful lot of questions in that time.

Were they asked in any manner that could be viewed by the general public
or the curious like me? We are discussing this here out of transparency,
so would be ideal for that info to be available as well.

> What the SFC provides is simple.  They provide knowledgeable and
> informed staff that are interested in actually running the legal side of
> open source projects.  This is something that Gentoo can not
> sufficiently provide on its own.

Agreed, at best without say the SFC there would be the need for outside
council. But like what the Gnome Foundation ended up with there are
firms that do Pro bono work.

> We were figuring we'd just let the Council do it.  There's no point in
> having a separate team for this, since all they'd be doing is
> essentially throwing a "yay" or "nay" to proposals.

Ok, Given that we elect a new council each year. What if in a year or so
they decide to leave the SFC. Just another question. Beyond leaving in
general, leaving almost immediately. Which they might have a time
interest/commitment in managing the entity if they are to take it over
or etc.

> Maybe you should look into how things actually work currently before
> assuming anything and basing your ideas off your flawed assumptions.

I have been trying to look into how things work. But many state things
aren't really working, so that doesn't help :)

> We've never once had to wait for contributions to buy anything. We have
> some money in the bank.  It isn't much.  In fact, it isn't even enough
> to reimburse Daniel Robbins for the trademarks once we finalize that
> transfer.

Ok, but doesn't that go against saying we never had to wait to buy
anything. Seems like waiting to be able to afford finalization of the
trademarks?

> To put it simply, we've got almost no money, even after 5 years of
> accumulating donations and store sales.  Our store sales are so
> absolutely abysmal that I didn't even send in the 2007.0 media.  It
> *literally* cost Gentoo money to sell 2006.1, we sold so few copies.  I
> spent more money shipping the CDs to CafePress than we made in 6+ months
> of sales.

Correct, and no enterprise would consider running Gentoo mostly because
they can't get paid support. Thus for me, that's an obvious light bulb.
Paid support would generate revenue. Seems pretty clear per the above
donations aren't cutting it and likely never will. Thus should Gentoo
always be a needy charity NPO, or one capable of sustaining itself.

> Your ideas, while perfectly fine, are on a scale that is completely
> unrealistic.

Without a full and complete business plan and model. That could be
presented to possible business that would run Gentoo. Along with
companies that might have an indirect interest there to motivate them to
invest in a way. Contribute if you will. But NOT donate. Yes these ideas
are unrealistic.

>   You need to realize that the scale we're working on is
> smaller than a mom and pop shop.

With the exception of talent and user base. We have much more potential
than most entities of comparable size fiscally. Not to mention SMB's is
my business for the most part. I am one, all my clients are them. While
most have more capital and assets. Few have as many hands or
customers/users. None have trademarks or etc, yet :)

>   We're well below the "poverty" line
> and I don't see us ever coming out of it without somebody like IBM
> deciding to dumb a few million dollars our way.  If that's what you're
> shooting for, you better get out your slut gear and start your corporate
> whoring now.  You're going to need it.  ;p

Well and that's basically what I am talking about. Locally I have some
contacts on the enterprise front to get interest there. Although with
time passing now, some have changed positions. Plus I thought that's
like the position Intel or etc was taking. Per rumors or etc from LWE.

Also since mentioning IBM above. IBM has invested in Linux, and IBM does
work with NPO's that they can't donate to like the PGA Tour. Granted in
many ways their interest there would be greater than any interest in
Gentoo. Unless IBM had their own users or interest in Gentoo. Such that
it would make sense to invest and preserve that.

I would imagine there would be potential state grants as well. Among
other things. At&t just gave a bunch of money locally to foster
technology[1]. Granted most are likely charitable donations to NPOs. I
am not sure if there is anything stopping them from contributing to
other NPOs

Plus from a PR perspective if the media catches wind Gentoo has a new
business model and plan as a NPO and would offer paid enterprise
support. Those things would generate hype and attention. From there who
knows what would come of it.

I just see it as an option not on the table. One that doesn't exist. One
that could be explored with the potential harm being? Worse case loss of
time on model and idea. Failure of NPO and/or loss of dev pool. Project
trademark get's handed over the SFC. And/or project fails. But most of
that could happen either way. With or without the SFC.

     1. http://www.att.com/gen/press-room?pid=4800&cdvn=news&newsarticleid=24830

-- 
William L. Thomson Jr.
Gentoo/Java