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On Wednesday, January 11, 2017 5:50:50 PM EST Michał Górny wrote: |
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> |
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> And how is that not discriminating? On one hand you talk of giving |
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> people outside the project the means to influence it, yet you |
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> explicitly take away the right of voting for people outside |
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> the Foundation (even though they are in the project, after all). |
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|
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If as a Developer you opt out of Foundation membership. You cannot turn |
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around and claim discrimination to something you chose to leave. |
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> I'm not sure if you've seen that but Gentoo developers lately have been |
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> harassed by multiple users who had no to minor contributions yet |
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> believed they are the best people to tell developers how do their work. |
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Which is why they would be better served to voice their opinions to Trustees. |
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Let Trustees approach council if they feel it is best. If Council feels the |
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need they could consult Developers. |
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|
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> Accepting input is one thing. Letting people who do not do current |
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> Gentoo work (= aren't affected by the decisions directly) decide on |
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> what others should do is another. |
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Just because Foundation, Council, and Gentoo project want to do something. |
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Does not mean YOU have to do that. At the same time a project should not be |
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just left up to those scratching itches. If by some means all that individual |
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itch scratching leads to something collectively great. |
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At some point has to be some big picture to how all the stuff fits together. |
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Are we a organized team/project or just individuals doing what ever? |
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> How can a user who has barely any contact with Gentoo developers be |
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> able to choose good candidates for the Council? |
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Users would never have ability to vote for Council. Foundation members can |
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only vote for Foundation stuff. Which Council voting would be left to |
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Developers. |
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> I don't see how either of those arguments are related to me being |
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> a Foundation member or not. After all, the Foundation protects *all* |
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> Gentoo work, independently of whether a developer doing it is a member |
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> or not, doesn't it? |
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So the Foundation and Trustees should be legally liable for all your actions |
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without any influence? |
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You can do what ever you want and we will be liable for your actions. Do you |
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want to be liable for all my actions. That is asking way to much of a Trustee |
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IMHO. Be 100% responsible and legally liable with no influence. |
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> I don't see a strict reason to do that, nor I see a strict reason not |
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> to do that. Just pointing out that lawfully membership could be |
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> considered fully irrelevant. |
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Sure and By Laws can be revised and policies enacted to address any such |
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issues, if needed. |
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> |
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> > It could be best, but could also result in a insiders only club. |
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> |
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> Excuse me but how is the Foundation membership different? Foundation |
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> members still have to be approved by Trustees. |
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Not if Foundation members are only developers. There would be no approval as |
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every Developer would have automatic membership till opt out. |
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Foundation membership approval would come from outsiders/contributors. Making |
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their case to the Trustees why they should be a member in the Gentoo |
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foundation and able to vote. |
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> They can get recruited. It's not hard. Getting a developer status |
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> (without commit access) mostly involves proving that you're accustomed |
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> to organization matters of how Gentoo operates. |
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There are many in the community who either cannot or do not want to be come |
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Developers in any capacity. Just the same as those who do not want to be |
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members in the Foundation. |
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> Do you really think Gentoo users should start telling developers how |
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> Gentoo should be operating without learning how it's operating right |
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> now first? |
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No, but how Gentoo operates today may not be how it always has or always |
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should. Gentoo is about choice, and should not exclude input from the |
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community. |
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Gentoo Developers do not know everything about Gentoo. There are many outside |
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of Gentoo who may know more technically and about the project organization |
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etc. Do not assume you are a expert or guru because you are a Developer, and |
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another is not because they are part of the community. |
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Who is to say Developers even know what is best, without considering others |
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perspectives. |
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> No. But it means that I'm no longer in position to tell others what to |
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> do, or vote who the best candidate for Council/Trustee/etc. is. |
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Would you not have any wisdom from your experience to share with others? |
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> I don't mind past contributors having advisory roles for Gentoo. I do |
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> mind having them vote on people when they no longer are interested in |
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> directly participating in the complete developer community. |
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Which is all they could do in being a member of the Foundation. Sure the |
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community could have more votes than developers. That is where Trustees |
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present such ideas to Council, on behalf of the community. |
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> I believe the legal liability concern is a rare enough issue for |
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> Trustees to be involved rather when that is a possible case rather than |
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> having them approve every step of everyone else. |
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True, but just because no one has sued does not mean the project should not be |
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aware of such liabilities and seek to protect itself from law suit. |
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> Yes, I know that they can. And they also know that by doing this they |
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> are going to lose many useful contributors. Gentoo can't exist without |
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> people doing the work, even if the common mailing list complainers |
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> finally get what they wanted and are satisfied. |
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Gentoo will not exist if it loses it community. Developers come from the |
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community. It took a few to start the project, but many to grow it. Those many |
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came from the community. |
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Like any business, it is not the employees that matter but the customers. Sure |
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they business cannot run without employees, but without customers, there is no |
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business. Thus without a community to use the stuff, there is no Gentoo. |
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Lots of software out there no one uses. |
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> It's not perfect but I believe Gentoo could prevail. Maybe it'd even be |
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> beneficial long-term, since it would let the developers actually doing |
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> a lot of work to split from those who mostly talk. Pretty much getting |
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> Gentoo back to the roots, as Daniel Robbins seen it. |
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That is not how Daniel sees it, and does not agree with such separation. That |
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is what people need to understand. What Gentoo has become it was not intended |
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to be, nor did it start that way. |
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> Of course, there's the trademark issue. It could end up in the 'FFmpeg |
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> fiasco' where actual development would continue in a separate entity, |
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> and Gentoo Foundation would just 'steal' their work and publish it as |
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> the official Gentoo. |
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There could be lots of issues, why it is best for all to work together. Not |
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create separate entities or potential division within the project. But |
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mechanisms to help keep it together by working together. |
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-- |
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William L. Thomson Jr. |