[gentoo-project] Re: Re: Plan, then communicate (no-list)

[Steve Long]

Richard Freeman wrote:

> Steve Long wrote:
>> Alec Warner wrote:
>>> Talking to users is exhausting when the user really has a
>>> misconception about a given problem, program, or feature.
>> Yeah it's called requirements analysis (whichever model you use.) That's
>> why it's such a source of problems.
>>
>
> True.  I think one of the underlying issues in this mess though is "who
> is the customer?"
>
I accept your points, but a distro's customers are its end-users. Simple.
Doesn't matter if some of them happen to be devs or power-users or
developers from other projects or a total newb. They are Gentoo's
customers.

The same applies to any software-project. If you don't look after your
users, you don't get paid (in the real world.) Without users Gentoo will
wither eventually. No real glory in working on a project no-one uses (even
if you and your mates think it's great and continue to use it; where will
you get new devs from when the others get a real job?)

> If I'm assigned to a project at work I typically have a customer that
> I'm aiming to make happy.  If the customer ends up happy, I get
> rewarded, and if the customer is unhappy I get punished.  If somebody
> other than the customer gives me some requirements they're usually only
> taken into consideration to the degree that they can be handled without
> significant additional cost, or interference with the customer's needs.
>
> It is the same in the open source world.  The customer is whoever
> rewards or punishes you.  Most often the customer is a peer of some sort
> - you take care of their php headaches and they take care of your
> baselayout headaches or whatever.  The customer is often yourself - you
> want to use some package not in portage - just add it.  Rarely is the
> customer an end user - the users aren't really in a position to reward
> you except in the most general sense - and if you take care of everybody
> else chances are you'll make a bunch of users happy anyway.
>
IDK; I thought the whole furore over the Foundation was quite stressful. And
I can't imagine any dev worth the name liking users' consistent and
bitterly eloquent complaints about the behaviour of their peers. It makes
me ashamed on IRC when they tell me about and I'm just a user; I simply
can't understand how some of your peers can be so unpleasant and no-one
says a word about it.

You represent Gentoo: that should be in every dev's head whenever they post
using a gentoo.org address. Yes your opinions are your own etc, but if you
behave like a stroppy teenager it reflects badly on everyone else. Doesn't
matter what your position is, whether you're on the Council or leading a
herd; if you behave badly someone should pick you up on it, *publically*
imo. You behave badly in public, you get picked up on it in the same
medium. That's what would make your "justice" seen to be done and give
people confidence that Gentoo as a whole will not tolerate nastiness in its
ranks.

ATM the very opposite seems to be true (and no it doesn't need a BDFL to
sort that out, nor would a BDFL be /able/ to sort that out imo: it has to
be a collective thing.)

> I'm not saying this is how it ought to be - but it is how it tends to be
> in the open source world.  How does IBM get its fancy hardware supported
> in linux?  They do a few things - one is that they write the drivers
> themselves, and two is that they give away all kinds of fancy code away
> so that the kernel maintainers are inclined to commit those drivers and
> take them forward.  They don't just stand up and complain that there
> aren't enough kernel devs buying mainframes and writing code for them.
>
Er yeah, but when users do try to get involved, believe me they get put off.
I'm not saying you do it (you're engaging in this discussion) but there is
a prevalent attitude towards "lusers." The funny thing is others use that
to mean all Linux users, specifically including Gentoo devs in some cases.

IBM invests in Linux because there is a return on that investment. Users
invest a lot, in time, and also emotion - defending Gentoo to detractors.
Personally I find it amazing that devs are so short-sighted: if you don't
want to interact, simply don't. Don't be nasty, don't sneer at users, just
stfu and let someone else handle it; or maybe, you know, honour the
agreement you made when you signed on, and start representing Gentoo, not
your own ego.

> You can always ask nicely - but one person asking nicely doesn't
> obligate anybody else to respond.  If what they're asking for entails a
> lot of work or a long-term maintenance commitment, they might need to do
> it themselves or find somebody else willing to do it.  However, asking
> nicely will generally get you further than asking rudely.
>
Indeed: maybe devs should think about that when they complain they don't
have enough help. How on Earth do you (as a group) expect to get it when
a) you don't ask and b) you are contemptuous of anyone offering it?

> More than anything else gentoo needs people to step up and DO things.
> If your favorite package is stale volunteer to maintain it.  Or at least
> volunteer to proxy-maintain it - convincing a developer you're willing
> to take the responsibility seriously so that they can do commits for
> you.  What you can't just do is throw an ebuild into bugzilla and
> complain when it doesn't get committed - a dev would be reluctant to
> just commit an ebuild without personally making sure it works well -
> since they get to deal with all the complaints when 5,000 servers stop
> working.
>
Sure: I tell people in #-dev-help to submit and when it's maintainer-wanted,
to take it to #gentoo-sunrise. I find it suprising that they don't already
know about it tbh.
 
> I'm not too worried - people are stepping up and the current situation
> will pass.  Considering that even welfare recipients find something
> about their free money to complain about in the US I'm not surprised
> that users who are offered a free operating system can find time to make
> demands of the people who gave it to them.  That's just human nature.  I
> think that most users will just take all of this in stride.  I'd love to
> see more done to get users involved and make them feel like they have a
> voice, but users do need to understand that while they have a right to
> speak up nobody has an obligation to take orders...

Yeah take it as read that we accept that you are here voluntarily. (So are
we btw.) What specifically do you think could be done to help your users
feel like Gentoo cares about them, rather than views them as an annoyance?

Other projects (eg btrfs) *like* the attention they get from Gentoo users.
They don't balk at editing config files etc, and they don't mind being told
somthing's b0rked, and they need to start again. If it helps, think of your
users as your fans.

Yes they can be annoying: but every single one of them cares about Gentoo.

I sometimes wonder if some of the devs do the same; they seem more concerned
with their own glory and absolutely hate being told they messed up. So you
get bitchy little arguments on bugzilla denying a problem, when they should
just fix the mess and move on.

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