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On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 6:02 PM, M. J. Everitt <m.j.everitt@×××.org> wrote: |
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> I |
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> still wholeheartedly believe that whilst that project continues to work |
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> under a veil of secrecy (with no disrespect to any members concerned) it |
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> loses a sense of integrity. If anyone cannot see this, I continue to |
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> believe they are naive or worse. |
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While I agree that operating in secrecy isn't ideal, I don't see how |
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it can work any other way. |
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The moment you start to make this sort of thing public you start to |
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run into the risk of slander, for starters. It also makes it harder |
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for somebody accused of something to rejoin the community because now |
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everybody is taking sides, probably against each other. |
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Ultimately it comes down to electing people you trust to deal with |
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this stuff. It isn't ideal, but at some point it is the best you can |
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do, IMO. |
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I get that this is easier for me to accept than a lot of others, |
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because when there is an appeal I get to see both sides of the story, |
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and everybody else just gets one side of the story and a bunch of |
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Council members saying that they think that the decision was fair. It |
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would be a lot easier if everything simply were public and then |
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everybody could just cast their own votes. I just don't think it |
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would be good for Gentoo. |
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> If there are cases of appeal which are brought to the council, and the |
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> grounds of the action made available are not the whole story, I would |
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> certainly expect the council to be made fully aware of this, even if |
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> this doesn't facilitate any further disclosure. |
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In cases of appeal all the Comrel records are made available to the |
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Council. I can't think of anybody on the Council who would tolerate |
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it being any other way. |
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> Finally, in instances of forced retirements I have witnessed, the person |
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> in question was removed from access to Bugzilla before the full claim |
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> made against them was documented. And therefore they were unaware of the |
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> accusations/allegations made against them with which to form an appeal |
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> to the body of ComRel nor Council. |
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Keep in mind that you're "witnessing" things from a fairly limited |
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perspective, since you don't have direct access to anything, but |
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you're only able to hear what people choose to share with you. And on |
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the official side of things that is basically nothing. |
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I can't really speak to any individual cases but I can't think of any |
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appeals where the person appealing didn't have general knowledge of |
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the substance of the actual complaint against them (and looking at |
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recent appeals I see clear evidence in emails that this was the case). |
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They might not have had a copy of every private conversation anybody |
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had with somebody else, or the specific names of witnesses, but they |
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did understand the nature of the complaints. |
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Usually the sticking point in disputes I've seen tends not to be |
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whether something happened, but whether what happened was a serious |
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problem. |
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> But I go back to my point that a project (any project) that |
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> operates under a veil of secrecy sacrifices integrity as a result of this. |
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I get the general principle. If we were talking about criminal law |
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that would be one thing. However, you can't sue a court or a |
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prosecutor for slander, whether the court's decision stands the test |
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of time or not. Gentoo doesn't have that luxury; we can be sued for |
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making statements about people and then we bear the burden of proving |
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the statement is accurate, to the standards of a court. Besides the |
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difficulty of doing this, I don't think it is healthy for the |
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community. We could have people make public statements about what |
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others did, and then everybody gets ticked off that accusations were |
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made against their friend, or that an accusation made by a friend |
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wasn't taken seriously, and so on, and then it becomes a big mess, |
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dragging people in who otherwise wouldn't be involved. Ultimately |
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personal disputes turn into popularity contests, or witch hunts. |
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I wouldn't say that operating in confidentiality in these matters is |
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ideal, but it seems like the least worst alternative. The rest just |
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seem like a good idea until you think through what would happen if you |
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actually tried them out. |
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-- |
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Rich |
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