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Rich Freeman wrote: |
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> On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 1:40 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@×××××.com> wrote: |
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>> It seems to me that William posted something that someone else didn't |
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>> like. |
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> That seems like a pretty big assumption. How do you know that it has |
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> something to do with something he posted? |
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|
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OK. Are you saying he did nothing wrong and was banned from a mailing |
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list, resigned as trustee and retired as a developer for doing nothing |
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at all? If that is the case, then Gentoo and ComRel has much larger |
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problems than it seems. While I said "posted", I basically meant he |
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said or did something that was not to someone's liking. I'm basing that |
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on what William wrote himself. I seem to recall he said he was banned |
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from a mailing list in one of the many posts here or in a link he |
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posted. It would seem to me that he posted something on that mailing |
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list that someone felt shouldn't be posted. My email is not a legal |
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document where I must include each and every single thing that may or |
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may not need to be listed. My email was my take on the topic based on |
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what I read. I might add, I was here when this happened. I do have a |
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very vague recollection of it. I suspect that I saw some spill over |
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threads and not the original cause of it tho. I'm certainly not basing |
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my replies on what I recall about it. That's way to long ago. |
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|
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> |
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>> I mentioned I help admin a website. If someone violates the rules, I |
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>> contact them on it and they chose to delete their account instead of |
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>> dealing with the matter, it doesn't mean they can never rejoin the |
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>> site. It does mean that if they do and I know it, then they would have |
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>> to address the previous problem. |
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> That is basically the same as Gentoo. I've yet to see an appeal where |
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> the person appealing wasn't told in writing exactly what the concern |
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> was. If they weren't that would certainly be something I'd be |
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> concerned about in an appeal. |
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|
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I agree. No one should have action taken on them without the person |
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first being warned. |
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|
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> |
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> Personally, I care far more about whether somebody is likely to follow |
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> the CoC TODAY than the exact circumstances of how they may have |
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> violated it 8+ years ago. ANY new recruit has to demonstrate that |
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> they are likely to follow the CoC and ones who may have violated it in |
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> the past are subject to more scrutiny. |
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|
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I think the question here is this. Was the ban from the mailing list |
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all of it punishment wise or was there some secret discussion later that |
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lead to William being effectively blacklisted? If what William did was |
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that bad, shouldn't he be told, whether he left Gentoo or not? On the |
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site I help with, when I ban someone, they are notified of why they are |
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banned. They are also given a email address to email to appeal the |
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ban. On that site, it is done automatically by the software. In this |
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situation tho, it seems that William has not been advised of that |
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decision, if one was made at all. Again, this is happening in what |
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others call a black box. |
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|
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> |
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> Something that keeps coming up in this discussion is reference to |
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> process and procedure within Comrel. The concern is nobody |
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> understands how they made the decision, or what rules they were |
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> supposed to follow. When appeals are discussed they're in terms of |
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> whether Comrel followed the rules when it did its job. I get that |
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> courts often work this way. |
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> |
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> However, I think we should be far more concerned about outcome. Is |
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> somebody willing to follow the CoC, or not? Are they able to follow |
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> the CoC, or not? Perhaps the way the black box works can be improved, |
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> and maybe we can expose more of the gears inside, but what matters the |
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> most is that it comes up with the right decision. |
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> |
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> So, if you don't like the results of a decision by all means appeal |
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> it. I can't promise that Council will follow the same rules Comrel |
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> followed. As far as I'm aware the Council hasn't really set any rules |
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> as to how it judges appeals. Ultimately what you'll get is an |
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> independent evaluation of whatever concerns Comrel raises (or which |
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> were originally raised to Comrel), and any subsequent behavior of the |
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> parties involved, and a judgement as to how the situation should be |
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> handled. |
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|
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I agree mostly here as well. I also believe that William needs to |
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appeal the decision, whatever that was or if one was ever made beyond |
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the email ban. Personally, based on William's posts here, it doesn't |
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seem that a official decision was made. Again, black box that we can't |
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see into. |
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|
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|
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> |
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> And this brings me back to a concern I mentioned a long time ago in |
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> this thread: appeal on the basis that you've proven that you're a good |
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> member of the community. If the basis of your appeal is that your |
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> behavior shouldn't matter, well, don't be surprised if it is defeated. |
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> If the basis of your appeal is that Comrel is out to get you, well, |
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> I'm sure it will get considered and maybe some reforms may come out of |
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> it if there is something to it, but whether you stay or go is a |
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> separate matter. If the basis of your appeal is that Comrel didn't |
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> complete step 2.3.1 of the Comrel rules of procedure then maybe we'll |
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> ask Comrel to try to follow the rules better or fix them after sending |
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> you on your way. If the basis of your appeal is that Comrel shouldn't |
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> exist in the first place, well, hopefully that isn't all there is to |
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> it. Ultimately we're going to be more concerned with whether the CoC |
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> is being followed and is likely to be followed. |
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|
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I can see this point as well. As I mentioned before, I was here when |
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the mailing lists were a disaster. It was a long time ago but I recall |
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it being bad. Even tho today no one actually seems to read every post, |
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people do know that there is a policing body that can deal with the |
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occasional problem. It's sort of like driving by a police car that is |
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very visible. It's natural to make sure you are within the law as you |
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drive by. We do have the occasional spammer or something that pops up |
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and then disappears. I recall seeing someone post that a good while |
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back. Just knowing that the mailing lists are being policed helps keep |
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it within reason. I wouldn't want that gone either. I wouldn't want |
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the mailing lists to go back to what they used to be years ago. If the |
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goal William has is to get rid of ComRel, that likely won't end well. |
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Changes to ComRel if needed, sure. End it, I hope not. |
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|
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> |
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> So, if you appeal a Comrel decision there aren't any magic words to |
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> say. Hiring a better lawyer isn't likely to impress anybody. You |
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> really just need to show that you have changed or are likely to |
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> change. And if you want to be a dev and aren't one yet, just interact |
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> positively with the community and nobody is going to have something to |
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> object to. You don't need to agree with every policy or be afraid of |
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> speaking up when you disagree. However, you do need to try to |
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> maintain a semi-professional attitude and treat people with respect, |
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> and you do need to follow the rules. There are cases where I disagree |
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> with most of the devs and probably the entire Council, and I've voiced |
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> those publicly. However, that doesn't stop me from working |
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> productively with anybody and it isn't personal and I follow the rules |
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> as they've been agreed upon, so I've yet to see anything come of it. |
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> There are devs who are fairly antisocial and they just sit in their |
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> corner doing commits all day, and nobody bothers them either as long |
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> as they follow QA policy. The people who get dragged into the Comrel |
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> process seem to be creating trouble in IRC (on channels, PMs, etc), or |
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> somethings on the mailing lists. Often it is just an |
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> argument/banter/etc that gets out of hand, but instead of just |
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> apologizing and changing they double down and dig in. That is a very |
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> broad generalization and a somewhat ignorant one since I only hear |
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> about cases that are appealed or which become so big that they become |
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> more public knowledge. |
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|
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I have to do the same thing on the site I help with. There are rules I |
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don't agree with but I still have to enforce them. If I don't, then I |
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need to either step down on my own or will be forced to leave. As you |
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say, if William has a problem with something, speak up and explain what |
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is wrong but do it within the current rules. |
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|
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> |
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> I'm not saying the way that Comrel operates doesn't matter. I'm |
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> certainly not saying that there isn't room for improvement. However, |
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> any changes that get made, and any criticism of how it works, need to |
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> be rooted in the ultimate goal: having a community that follows the |
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> CoC. If the concern is with the CoC itself that is also something |
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> that can be changed, and anybody is free to argue that it isn't right. |
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> However, there isn't going to be some loophole where with the right |
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> argument you can basically mistreat others in the community and get |
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> away with it. Nor is the bar going to be set unreasonably high for |
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> Comrel to deal with people who do so. |
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> |
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|
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I think part of the problem may be the "black box" method currently is |
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use. I know on the site I help on, staff knows and sees things that |
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members can't see. As a example, someone posts a reply that clearly |
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violates the rules and then immediately deletes the post. We as staff |
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can see that deleted post. Regular members can't see it tho. If staff |
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takes action on that post, then the members have no idea what happened |
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to cause the action. Members are running around complaining that we |
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restricted/banned someone for nothing because they can't see the post we |
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see. Thing is, we know we did the right thing. Just like with ComRel |
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tho, we can't post a screenshot or anything that shows why the action |
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was taken. Members remain clueless and sometimes angry. This is |
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basically where we are, and maybe William too. We don't know what |
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happened in the black box. Until William appeals it, he may not know |
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either. |
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|
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This is likely my last reply. While I would like to see Gentoo improved |
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and all, I have to much going on in the real world to spend time |
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debating it. I just felt the need to make my post in case it would |
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help. If it doesn't, Gentoo is still Gentoo. |
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|
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Dale |
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|
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:-) :-) |