Re: [gentoo-project] Re: Trying to become a Gentoo Developer again spanning 8 years...

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 1:40 AM, Dale <rdalek1967@×××××.com> wrote:
>
> It seems to me that William posted something that someone else didn't
> like.

That seems like a pretty big assumption.  How do you know that it has
something to do with something he posted?

> I mentioned I help admin a website.  If someone violates the rules, I
> contact them on it and they chose to delete their account instead of
> dealing with the matter, it doesn't mean they can never rejoin the
> site.  It does mean that if they do and I know it, then they would have
> to address the previous problem.

That is basically the same as Gentoo.  I've yet to see an appeal where
the person appealing wasn't told in writing exactly what the concern
was.  If they weren't that would certainly be something I'd be
concerned about in an appeal.

Personally, I care far more about whether somebody is likely to follow
the CoC TODAY than the exact circumstances of how they may have
violated it 8+ years ago.  ANY new recruit has to demonstrate that
they are likely to follow the CoC and ones who may have violated it in
the past are subject to more scrutiny.

Something that keeps coming up in this discussion is reference to
process and procedure within Comrel.  The concern is nobody
understands how they made the decision, or what rules they were
supposed to follow.  When appeals are discussed they're in terms of
whether Comrel followed the rules when it did its job.  I get that
courts often work this way.

However, I think we should be far more concerned about outcome.  Is
somebody willing to follow the CoC, or not?  Are they able to follow
the CoC, or not?  Perhaps the way the black box works can be improved,
and maybe we can expose more of the gears inside, but what matters the
most is that it comes up with the right decision.

So, if you don't like the results of a decision by all means appeal
it.  I can't promise that Council will follow the same rules Comrel
followed.  As far as I'm aware the Council hasn't really set any rules
as to how it judges appeals.  Ultimately what you'll get is an
independent evaluation of whatever concerns Comrel raises (or which
were originally raised to Comrel), and any subsequent behavior of the
parties involved, and a judgement as to how the situation should be
handled.

And this brings me back to a concern I mentioned a long time ago in
this thread: appeal on the basis that you've proven that you're a good
member of the community.  If the basis of your appeal is that your
behavior shouldn't matter, well, don't be surprised if it is defeated.
If the basis of your appeal is that Comrel is out to get you, well,
I'm sure it will get considered and maybe some reforms may come out of
it if there is something to it, but whether you stay or go is a
separate matter.  If the basis of your appeal is that Comrel didn't
complete step 2.3.1 of the Comrel rules of procedure then maybe we'll
ask Comrel to try to follow the rules better or fix them after sending
you on your way.  If the basis of your appeal is that Comrel shouldn't
exist in the first place, well, hopefully that isn't all there is to
it.  Ultimately we're going to be more concerned with whether the CoC
is being followed and is likely to be followed.

So, if you appeal a Comrel decision there aren't any magic words to
say.  Hiring a better lawyer isn't likely to impress anybody.  You
really just need to show that you have changed or are likely to
change.  And if you want to be a dev and aren't one yet, just interact
positively with the community and nobody is going to have something to
object to.  You don't need to agree with every policy or be afraid of
speaking up when you disagree.  However, you do need to try to
maintain a semi-professional attitude and treat people with respect,
and you do need to follow the rules.  There are cases where I disagree
with most of the devs and probably the entire Council, and I've voiced
those publicly.  However, that doesn't stop me from working
productively with anybody and it isn't personal and I follow the rules
as they've been agreed upon, so I've yet to see anything come of it.
There are devs who are fairly antisocial and they just sit in their
corner doing commits all day, and nobody bothers them either as long
as they follow QA policy.  The people who get dragged into the Comrel
process seem to be creating trouble in IRC (on channels, PMs, etc), or
somethings on the mailing lists.  Often it is just an
argument/banter/etc that gets out of hand, but instead of just
apologizing and changing they double down and dig in.  That is a very
broad generalization and a somewhat ignorant one since I only hear
about cases that are appealed or which become so big that they become
more public knowledge.

I'm not saying the way that Comrel operates doesn't matter.  I'm
certainly not saying that there isn't room for improvement.  However,
any changes that get made, and any criticism of how it works, need to
be rooted in the ultimate goal: having a community that follows the
CoC.  If the concern is with the CoC itself that is also something
that can be changed, and anybody is free to argue that it isn't right.
However, there isn't going to be some loophole where with the right
argument you can basically mistreat others in the community and get
away with it.  Nor is the bar going to be set unreasonably high for
Comrel to deal with people who do so.

-- 
Rich