[gentoo-user] Re: Install PreQualifying Matrix

[James]

Jeremi Piotrowski <jeremi.piotrowski <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Planning questions are an OK-ish idea, but I surely wouldn't link to
> derivative distributions to answer them. We have appropriate wiki pages
> for all options, those that are insufficient should be improved. These
> could be linked to so that people know what to expect.

I'm not suggesting that the handbook not be referenced or recommended.
I'm suggesting that we point to some sites for quick installs, including
gentoo livedvd. Others might be after a failed handbook install.
It's an idea, certainly not a mutiny.... But I do see that the handbook
being the face of the gentoo install experience is sub optimal. ymmv.
I think it should be an reference option for those ready for a deeper
learning (pedantic) experience. I do think there is room for a quickie
install semantic, if not many other install semantics other than the
handbook. Hence the idea of the Planning Matrix Questions before a
particular installation semantic is chosen by the  new user.


> > What I really would appreciate is some feedback on the Planning
> > Questions listed below, as to help folks organized their thoughts and
> > hardware details BEFORE actually performing an install or test-drive.

> It's always good to plan before doing something so *this* part of your
> proposal I support.

Yes the idea works with just keeping the status quo for installs (pain and
torture via the handbook) too. That's a minimal scope of what I have
in mind so hence I'm first shopping the idea here to give gentoo the first
shot. If not, I might just put up a neutral site and point to all the
gentoo derivative distros; and let folks choose as they like. I've been
on this list over 10 years now. I'm pretty convicted about this 
need to offer up a softer face to gentoo installs, one way or another.
Sites like distrowatch do Gentoo a great dis-service.


> > A recent discussion of the dev list showed
> > encouragement for pointing gentoo-noobs to some of the gentoo derivative
> > distros for a quick install experience.

> Perhaps it would be enough to extend this page
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/About

That seems like a page to read just before attempting a Handbook install.
However, you can take what ideas you like and make those mods as you like.
What I'm talking about is a set of questions that help a user
prepare the info and make critical decisions, like systemd vs openrc.

> and under `Troubles` mention derivative distributions (by name) with a
> _hint_ that their installers quickly lead to a working base system.

That sounds like a good idea; do you have rights to the wiki page?
Gonna post a bgo doc bug?

> The decisions to be made during the installation are mostly orthogonal, so
> I wouldn't try to break the current installation procedure which is for
> the most part linear.

Many think the current install (via the handbook) is like kissing a sour
lemon on the first date. ymmv.

> A matrix implies some form of interaction between the options, which I
> don't quite see.

The proposal is for planning before the install occurs. It does suggest
that the handbook be only one of the possible pathways to a successful
installation of gentoo (or a limited number of gentoo derivatives). 

It can be a (3) column table with links to appropriate install semantics.
It's a thought looking for comments; not a hard pitch at all. I think
I have identified some excellent questions to pose to potential gentoo
install noobs, so they at least prepare for whatever  installation semantic
they choose to follow. If folks do not like the idea of pointing to other
distros with installer programs. OK. That can be something
informally suggested. I thought the link to calculate where its is clearly
explained how to covert a calculate linux install to a gentoo install, is a
valid idea and it first appeared in gentoo-dev. Many of the devs are aware
of the drudgery of installing gentoo via the handbook. Sure many folks
think that pain is necessary, but I do disagree, strongly. I never taught
like that in any of my labs or folks I have mentored over the decades. But
the 'hard ass' approach is a popular, legacy mentality  and many youthful as
well as older folks with experience just do not respond well to that sort of
speech, imho. That's what the combination of the handbook and many
responses in gentoo-user project, imho.

Calcuate linux keeping a page around where folks and easily see how to 
convert a calculate linux install to a gentoo install is very classy on
their part as they are interested in what is best for the user.


> > straightforward for folks to discern the best route to their desired
> > final result. When new installation semantics [1]  mature, the
> > installation matrix can be modified to include those options as links.

> >         Install PreQualifying Matrx::QUESTIONS
> >         Live Testdrive options before installation(usb/cd/dvd)::

> Pretty much already covered by
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Handbook:AMD64/Installation/Media

Really ? USB ? Persistence ? Net or remote boots?  auto-Installer?

> >         Intended Usage (workstation/server/device/)
> >         Hardware or Vitual installation::
> >         PC mobo or tablet/embedded/device::
> >         Processor/Ram characteristics::

> How are any of these relevant to the installation?

Profiles? Data needed for kernel configs?  Which set of instructions
to follow (vm vs hardware based)?

> For virtual
> installations I would only add mention of the `make kvmconfig` option that
> quickly pulls in qemu drivers. But the other things you mentioned don't
> have corresponding choices that need to be made (during the install and
> especially by newcomers). I'd remove them.

I never said every question brings forth useful information for every
possible install pathway. It's a collection of planning questions before
anyone at gentoo-user knows what's are the goals or expectations of the
person newly installing gentoo.


> >         MBR vs (u)EFI (type of mobo)::
> >         Single or Multi or RAID disk configuration::
> >         File System type(s)::
> >         Grub1 vs Grub2 or other boot-semantics::

> To me these are the only real things that need to be thought about during
> the install. MBR vs UEFI is well explained if you ask me.

Maybe but has the person preparing to do the intalll congnicent of the choice?
> Single/RAID and filesystems are strongly connected but can be chosen
> freely independent of the other two.


> Grub2 can boot pretty much anything and if you use the EFI
> stub kernel on the ESP with initrd then that too can handle anything.  So
> no dependencies here.

Good questions for preparation of the install. The idea is to avoid sending
the  new install person on a reading lesson during the installation. Maybe
suggest the reading before the install commences.


> So I would ask these questions in this order, and this is actually the
> order in which they show up in the handbook... which makes me wonder
> whether there is really a need for this.

The point is that this should be discuss *before* a handbook install
is conducted, not during the install.... Looking back a documents one
has been previously introduced to, is usually more successful, too.

> >         OpenRC or Systemd::

> More of a post install thing if you ask me but the handbook currently
> links to the systemd article at just the right time.

> If anything I would actually go for a simplification of the install
> procedure, to something extremely low maintenence (for the handbook
> authors ofc). An ext4 single disk install with grub2 (meh) that every one
> can handle.

YES and script it up so the answers  to those aforementioned questions
can be parsed during a (semi) auto install..... HELL YES!

But still that would be just one of the pathways. Let's face it
the concept of a singular handbook install doc for all install
cases is dated at best. What about tablets?   Arm64. Cell phones
running linux. Vitural or Canotainer based installs, embedded just to name a
few. A planning/decision matrix can be linked to a multitude of install
choices, old and new (lilblue, tinhat, tor-ramdisk, pentoo, etc etc).
I'm quite certain the install handbook would be cross referenced,
frequently, kinda like a websters' dictionary is when doing homework.
To me, I am suggesting using the handbook as a reference document.

> Sure gentoo gives you choices but you have to be ready to handle them, so
> perhaps the first install is not the right one for experimenting?

Agreed. The first ride on Gentoo should be a live or autoinstall.
Even technically astute folks will appreciated that convenience, that
is folks that do not even need the handbook.....

> > as well as valid install links
> > like sabayon for gentoo(ish) systemd
> > like calculate-linus for gentoo(ish)openrc
> > like pentoo for gentoo-penetration systems
> > like zentoo for gentoo CI systems
> > Like funtoo as an option install
> > like gentooliveUSB   for a gentoo + persistence experience.

> The goal should be to get people to come to gentoo-gentoo, not to go
> elsewhere.

Really? If you read a bit there is a significant support for running off
many folks new to gentoo; as they are not worthy or some horse_feathers like
that.....


> I actually don't feel that there is any crisis. The only time I've ever
> had problems with the install was when I decided to not follow the
> handbook. Most people should just stick to the handbook and learn.
> Experiment once they know what they're dealing with.

I chatted up one of the failed installs today. Seems the guy has been
using linux and unix for quite some time He is disillusioned with debian +
systemd. He feels pretty insulted by the 'tone' of some of the responses; so
I would  politely disagree with you here.


> I think an einstein quote is relevant here:
>     Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.

I doubt Einstein could install gentoo. He was known for bumbling around
a bit. How would you feel if Albert failed on a gentoo handbook install?
Pretty crappy is my bet.

> The current install procedure is pretty much as simple as can be,
> once you think about it.

Bull Crap. I strongly disagree here. I think it's a sadistic ritual
for smoots needing self satisfaction and emancipation at the expense
of others. Many do not like the systemd landscape and are looking for
a lifeline. The guy I chatted up felt like he had his teeth kicked in,
and he not young either.

Again, I disagree with you. We use to have an installer. Most distros,
including most of the gentoo derivative distros have an installer
program, at least for basic installs. I certainly would appreciated 
one, and many others have expressed that such an auto-installer would be
keen. When somebody is ready for a pedantic beat down, the handbook can
emerge as victorious......

The handbook is fine, but an installer would be fantastic, imho. ymmv.

James