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On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 4:40 PM, James <wireless@×××××××××××.com> wrote: |
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> Rich Freeman <rich0 <at> gentoo.org> writes: |
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> |
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> Rich, embedded is my background. I'm more of an EE |
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> over the years. so YES, to me it is very important to |
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> understand hardware and the firmwares that allow all |
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> of the OO-gui stuffage that exists (and is wonderfull). |
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|
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Again, I wasn't bashing anybody for having a desire to understand |
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cgroups. I just didn't want to suggest that it was necessary to have |
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this knowledge to actually use systemd. |
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|
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Of course, if you're in an unusual niche (embedded, clusters, etc) |
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then systemd is going to be less mature, and since you're blazing a |
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trail the additional knowledge certainly wouldn't hurt. And of course |
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you don't have to use systemd to benefit from cgroups. |
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|
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> |
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> You have an idealized view of what is going on in the cluster code spaces. |
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> (systemd issue abound aplenty). Folks are just loading binaries on top |
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> of binaries and look for salvation via config files. |
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|
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You certainly have more firsthand perspective there than I do. |
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Systemd has plenty of issues in any configuration - it is very new, |
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and VERY susceptible to race conditions with its dependencies. When |
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you run it on a box that provides core services (dhcp, dns, nfs, etc) |
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as well as consuming those same services you can run into a lot of |
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unspecified dependencies. For example, systemd tends to assume that |
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if the network is up, DNS is up, but that doesn't work so well for |
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your DNS server. |
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|
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None of these are insurmountable design issues, they just point to the |
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immaturity of the project. |
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|
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But, like many here that aspect of systemd doesn't really scare me off much. |
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|
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> If the systemd devs and perveyors feel pressure to make systemd a |
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> superior technology; what's wrong with that? I like the promise |
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> of systemd; I *hate* the way it has been jammed down on everyone. |
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|
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Well, certainly on Gentoo it hasn't been jammed on anybody per-se. |
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About the closest to that in Gentoo has been the fact that they took |
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over udev maintenance, but that is an upstream issue (and nobody can |
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prevent anybody from forking it/etc). Within Gentoo there was some |
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controversy when some package maintainers wanted to prevent others |
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from adding systemd units to their packages, and from that standpoint |
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there is a policy that forces maintainers to stay out of the way if |
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somebody else wants to do the work to adapt a package for systemd (or |
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for openrc for that matter). |
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|
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Most other distros only support a single init, and for whatever reason |
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they've decided to switch. That is really their business, but it is |
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hard to say that anybody is forcing anybody to do anything. Gnome is |
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obviously a factor, but again nobody HAS to use Gnome, and it is a bit |
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like complaining about having to have Java installed in order to play |
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minecraft or use some features in openoffice (granted, Java isn't |
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/quite/ as invasive though sometimes it feels that way). |
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|
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> I think once Lennart moves on to something else (as many have pondered) |
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> systemd will become more attractive. In my youth, I did not understand |
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> 'good manners' and lennart epitomizes some episodes in my tempetuous youth I |
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> regret. |
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|
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Welcome to the FOSS community, where principle and idealism trumps |
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relationships every day. In the end we tolerate contributors because |
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they contribute. We could always choose to not use their stuff, but |
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for the most part we're too lazy to re-implement everything. With |
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FOSS people only have power over you if you give it to them, but not |
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giving it to them comes with a price. |
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|
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> Older folks just murmur under their breath that this snot_nosed_kid |
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> should have been bitch_slapped by that idiot Linus. He failure to |
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> reign in that looser cannot be white_washed by anyone; so let's just |
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> let this go....... |
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|
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Just what would you have Linus do? Other than criticize publicly, |
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there isn't much Linus can do about systemd, since he maintains the |
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kernel and systemd isn't part of the kernel. Linus has about as much |
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power to change systemd as anybody does. |
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|
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Again, with FOSS YOU choose who gets the power, since you choose what |
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software you use. If you run xfce then there is nothing the gnome |
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developers can do to touch you. Now, if all the xfce maintainers get |
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bored and quit you're stuck, but that is true of anything in FOSS. |
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You get what you pay for. :) |
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|
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-- |
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Rich |