Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Zeerak Waseem]

On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 17:51:01 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann  
<volkerarmin@××××××××××.com> wrote:

> On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
>> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:01:22 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann
>>
>> <volkerarmin@××××××××××.com> wrote:
>> > On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick
>> <neil@××××××××××.uk>
>> >>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
>> >> >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't
>> >> >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just
>> seems
>> >> >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand.
>> >> >
>> >> > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE,
>> >>
>> >> KMail
>> >>
>> >> > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive
>> DE,
>> >>
>> >> not
>> >>
>> >> > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps
>> are
>> >> > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus.
>> >>
>> >> Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit.
>> >> But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things
>> >> that
>> >> aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft
>> (is
>> >> this the correct term?) dependencies.
>> >> Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an
>> >> optional
>> >> dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index
>> all
>> >> the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does
>> if I
>> >> understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon
>> >> probably
>> >> Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if-
>> they
>> >> feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-)
>> >>
>> >> In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some
>> >> don't
>> >> mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to
>> >> disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and
>> don't
>> >> consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others
>> it's
>> >> an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people
>> not
>> >> using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus
>> >> becomes
>> >> bloat.
>> >
>> > and luckily for you, there are a lot of 'soft' dependencies. kmail
>> does
>> > not
>> > force you to install konqueror. It does not force you to install
>> plasma-
>> > desktop or systemsettings. It does not force you to install the
>> printing
>> > manager ....
>>
>> But then the question isn't whether there are a number of soft
>> dependencies, but in the case of semantic-desktop whether -it- is a soft
>> dependency. Like previously stated, I don't use kmail, nor do I intend
>> to
>> (I at least think I mentioned it). This is just my take on the matter of
>> whether it is truly necessary, or even a good idea to have
>> symantic-desktop as a hard dependency.
>
> yes it is a good idea. Because KDE is such a modular beast you can not
> just
> install kmail, konqueror or kate. You always need a bit more for full
> functionality. KDE strives to be a COMPLETE, networking, work and data
> sharing
> aware desktop solution.
>
> Semantic-Desktop is a huge part of it.
>
> If you never used nepomuk, you don't even know what you are missing.

I have tried it, briefly so I won't claim to know all the merits, but it  
didn't seem to be a huge addition to my life. To each his own however :-)
I don't know, I just considered flexibility and as much being as far  
independent of anything that isn't strictly related to the core functions  
of the application.
But again, this is just my take, and the entire development with KDE is  
interesting to follow and I'll surely be following this development with a  
great interest.
>
>> And as stated, this is not in the light of a full blown KDE env, but
>> mainly in considerations to when you're using another window manager.
>
> you can use whatever WM you want in KDE. Isn't that nice.
>
>> Be
>> it icewm, jwm, openbox or whatever. Should something that is an
>> integrated
>> part of the KDE desktop environment be forced on those that don't use
>> KDE?
>
> what are you even talking about?
>

Well what I mean is that Semantic-desktop is a part of the KDE DE, right?  
So anyone not using the fullblown DE, but simply a few apps is being  
forced to install semantic-desktop with various KDE apps.
And sure you can use whatever WM in KDE, but that was never really the  
point, at least not how I intended it, pardons if I was too vague about  
it. My point was if you only run a window manager and not any DE at all.

>> Our opinions on this matter obviously differ, and for that simple
>> reason I
>> find it interesting to find out -why- you think it's okay that they're
>> being forced. And simply stating that the devs' decided that it was how
>> it
>> was done, is pretty much as nonconstructive argument as "dbus is bad
>> because it's new". I'd like to find out why you seem to disagree, so
>> please. By all means, enlighten me :-) (I am asking for it after all ;))
>
> no, I have the feeling that you are trolling.
>

Oh, well I'm very sorry that you get that impression, I am actually quite  
interested in some arguments for why you consider it to be okay (which are  
being provided throughout your post :-)). But I very much apologise for  
the misunderstanding. (It would hardly be good sport to start trolling  
when I sent out a mail a few hours ago, asking to keep cheekiness to a  
bare minimum :-) )

> But see above. KDE goals is more than just a wm with some apps. That
> niche is
> filled by XFCE. And for being more than just a wm plus an asorted pile
> of apps,
> you need a certain infrastructure shared by the whole environment.
>
> KDE apps use PHONON, so they don't have to deal with the underlying sound
> system.
> KDE apps use SOLID, so they don't need to care about hardware, hot
> plugin,
> etc.
> KDE apps use dbus so they can share code and easily communicate.
>
> KDE apps use NEPOMUK, so they don't need to fiddle with different
> databases and
> concepts when working with information. And 'semanitic-desktop' is more
> than
> just finding a certain picture, textfile, email or link quickly.
>

Would you care to expand on this? Because I pretty much had the  
semantic-desktop thing down to being finding something certain quickly :-)

> When you are displaying a html email, Kmail uses the khtml kpart. Why
> don't
> you cry about that dependency? Who uses html mails anyway?
>

Plenty of newsletters do, Star wars newsletter, splitreason newsletter,  
and I believe sony psp newsletter as well just to name a few, so no I  
don't complain about it in the least. It's still very much used.

> You might have missed the memo. But today information is more compley
> than
> keeping a tidy tree of directories. And finding information is harder
> with
> gigabytes of data than a couple of floppy disks.
>

Yes, it is harder to find and keep track of files amongst x-hundred GB of  
data, the way I see it though, a logical directory tree can help with that.

> Semantic-desktop can help you with that. A lot. Your calender tells you,
> that
> there is a meeting tomorrow where SUBJECT A is on the agenda. A semantic
> desktop aware environment can give you all files concerned with SUBJECT
> A. All
> pictures, all texts, presentations, emails and bookmarks. in a split
> second.
>
> http://nepomuk.kde.org/discover/user
>
>
>

Well I'll hand it to you, that is smart. I would argue that much of the  
same thing could be accomplished with a logical directory tree, but there  
are some things that can't obviously. :-)

-- 
Zeerak