Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Has semantic-desktop really become compulsatory for kmail?

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 14:01:22 +0100, Volker Armin Hemmann
>
> <volkerarmin@××××××××××.com> wrote:
> > On Freitag 12 Februar 2010, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
> >> On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 10:53:04 +0100, Neil Bothwick <neil@××××××××××.uk>
> >>
> >> wrote:
> >> > On Fri, 12 Feb 2010 05:19:43 +0100, Zeerak Waseem wrote:
> >> >> But I do find it silly, that the various applications that aren't
> >> >> dependent of the DE, to require a dependency of the DE. It just seems
> >> >> a bit backwards to me :-) I simply don't understand.
> >> >
> >> > That just shows that they are still partially dependent on the DE,
> >>
> >> KMail
> >>
> >> > also needs various KDE libraries. KDE was designed as a cohesive DE,
> >>
> >> not
> >>
> >> > just a bunch of applications with a common look and feel. KDE apps are
> >> > intended to be run on a KDE desktop, anything else is a nice bonus.
> >>
> >> Indeed, and it is a noble pursuit.
> >> But from a marketing aspect, it would make more sense to have things
> >> that
> >> aren't -vital- for the app, unlike kde-libs in this case, to be soft (is
> >> this the correct term?) dependencies.
> >> Both aspects could be satisfied by having symantic-desktop as an
> >> optional
> >> dep. It's not a vital function for kmail to be able to tag and index all
> >> the files on the computer (which is what the symantic-desktop does if I
> >> understand correctly), it's a nifty thing for KDE users, and soon
> >> probably
> >> Gnome users as well, but for anyone else, it's a nifty thing -if- they
> >> feel the need for it. Much like most other bits of software :-)
> >>
> >> In the end there isn't a right or wrong, but just a standpoint. Some
> >> don't
> >> mind the bloat (we can agree that it's bloat if you're just going to
> >> disable the function as soon as it's been installed, right?) and don't
> >> consider it to be the slightest bit akin to bloat, whilst to others it's
> >> an unnecessary feature forced on them (mainly thinking of the people not
> >> using kde, but also those kde-users that just disable it) and thus
> >> becomes
> >> bloat.
> >
> > and luckily for you, there are a lot of 'soft' dependencies. kmail does
> > not
> > force you to install konqueror. It does not force you to install plasma-
> > desktop or systemsettings. It does not force you to install the printing
> > manager ....
>
> But then the question isn't whether there are a number of soft
> dependencies, but in the case of semantic-desktop whether -it- is a soft
> dependency. Like previously stated, I don't use kmail, nor do I intend to
> (I at least think I mentioned it). This is just my take on the matter of
> whether it is truly necessary, or even a good idea to have
> symantic-desktop as a hard dependency.

yes it is a good idea. Because KDE is such a modular beast you can not just 
install kmail, konqueror or kate. You always need a bit more for full 
functionality. KDE strives to be a COMPLETE, networking, work and data sharing 
aware desktop solution.

Semantic-Desktop is a huge part of it.

If you never used nepomuk, you don't even know what you are missing.

> And as stated, this is not in the light of a full blown KDE env, but
> mainly in considerations to when you're using another window manager.

you can use whatever WM you want in KDE. Isn't that nice.

> Be
> it icewm, jwm, openbox or whatever. Should something that is an integrated
> part of the KDE desktop environment be forced on those that don't use KDE?

what are you even talking about? 

> Our opinions on this matter obviously differ, and for that simple reason I
> find it interesting to find out -why- you think it's okay that they're
> being forced. And simply stating that the devs' decided that it was how it
> was done, is pretty much as nonconstructive argument as "dbus is bad
> because it's new". I'd like to find out why you seem to disagree, so
> please. By all means, enlighten me :-) (I am asking for it after all ;))

no, I have the feeling that you are trolling.

But see above. KDE goals is more than just a wm with some apps. That niche is 
filled by XFCE. And for being more than just a wm plus an asorted pile of apps, 
you need a certain infrastructure shared by the whole environment.

KDE apps use PHONON, so they don't have to deal with the underlying sound 
system.
KDE apps use SOLID, so they don't need to care about hardware, hot plugin, 
etc.
KDE apps use dbus so they can share code and easily communicate.

KDE apps use NEPOMUK, so they don't need to fiddle with different databases and 
concepts when working with information. And 'semanitic-desktop' is more than 
just finding a certain picture, textfile, email or link quickly.

When you are displaying a html email, Kmail uses the khtml kpart. Why don't 
you cry about that dependency? Who uses html mails anyway?

You might have missed the memo. But today information is more compley than 
keeping a tidy tree of directories. And finding information is harder with 
gigabytes of data than a couple of floppy disks. 

Semantic-desktop can help you with that. A lot. Your calender tells you, that 
there is a meeting tomorrow where SUBJECT A is on the agenda. A semantic 
desktop aware environment can give you all files concerned with SUBJECT A. All 
pictures, all texts, presentations, emails and bookmarks. in a split second.

http://nepomuk.kde.org/discover/user