[gentoo-user] Re: Install PreQualifying Matrix

[James]

Dale <rdalek1967 <at> gmail.com> writes:

> > Blueness is a wonderful and collegial type of dev
> > and is currently seeking input on his 'alpha' ideas::
> > https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:RelEng_GRS


His work is progressing and there are (3) major versions just 
posted to gentoo-dev.


> So this is to create a installer then?  Someone built a installer a long
> time ago and it didn't work well.  Heck, I never could get the thing to
> even complete the install and that was IF it would boot at all to even
> start the process.  It would hang somewhere and then sit there doing
> nothing.  After that, I found a installer to be useless and a waste of
> time.  I wasn't alone on that point either.  Not long after that, the
> installer project died.  The current handbook, it works.

Funny. I just recently took the old 2008 version and installed on old
vintage hardware and it worked like a charm. ymmv.


> This is the issue as I see it.  A few people want a installer to make
> Gentoo easier to install.  Well, why?  After you install Gentoo, you
> have to update, maintain and maybe repair that install.  A installer
> isn't going to do that unless you wait for a new version of the
> installer and re-install/update sort of like windoze does.  Basically,
> you are going to need what is learned during the install to
> maintain/repair your system and that is just the start of it.  It's that
> simple.

I look at your argument here as "mono-dimensional" as there are a plethora
of 'gentoo' systems one can end up with now; a lot has changed.

Embedded, tablet, gentoo-cell phone, efi, mbr not to mention what the final
target is (server, security-appliance, terminal server, CI, vm or container
host etc etc). One install semantic does not fit all current nor future needs.

Besides, if I want to deploy 50 systems for a cluster, one at a time in
parallel what do you recommend? via handbook? The modern diversity of
hardware options has rendered the gentoo handbook, dysfunctional, at best,
imho. ymmv.



> Another issue with having an installer.  People install Gentoo with the
> installer, if it works, and are basically completely clueless about
> Gentoo and the effort it takes to run it.  I'd be surprised if even a
> small percentage that used the last installer are still using Gentoo.

I am; that's at least one.

> People use the installer, find out that Gentoo isn't a point n click
> distro, get pissed because they actually have to work at it and then
> they switch to something else.  Does that benefit Gentoo?  Not likely.

So we split off the install support to another group so the good-folks
on gentoo-user do not have to be bothered with these sort of
installer-folks. My bet is this *attitude* is bullshit and these problems,
with an automated install system will be quite manageable by the
gentoo-noob-community directly. ymmv. We'll see, won't we? Either way,
your participate will be optional; so don't stress out about it.


> Gentoo can be a pain and most people don't want that because they don't
> want to put any real effort into their OS.  When I install Linux for
> someone else, I put some sort of Ubuntu or something that they can
> handle.  Putting Gentoo on a system and expecting them to handle updates
> would be . . . well . . . silly.  It would be a setup for failure.  If
> someone wanted to run Gentoo on their puter, I'd sit with them while
> they went through the install, with them doing the work and learning.

Dale, kids, old folk and such blue collar folks run gentoo. I know I have
set up probably hundreds of gentoo systems for folks over the years. Many
haver gone on to study computer science or EE in school, other keep busting
wrenches for a living. The mystic that gentoo is only for the compiler
genies of the world is absolutely bullshit, so get that out of your brain,
or at least stop spewing that venom as gospel. You have no statistical
proof, only one at a time experiences. YES some behave that way. But
countless others do not and have not behave that way in the past and
currently;  and they would appreciate a simple semi-automated install
pathway, if not many such options for unattended installs of gentoo.

To me, gentoo is an emancipation of one's ablity,  to both run and optimize
software on hardware or virtual; and I run into lots of folks, including
recent college grads that just love it. Gentoo is NOT DIFFICULT, once the
basic install is accomplished, in my experiences. A frustrating gentoo
install does not even come close to learing everything one needs to know
about gentoo to manipulated the gentoo system going forward. Nor is
it the only pathway to a happy gentoo install.

Embedded software developers that have little *nix experience readily take
to gentoo, because of it's sourcecode nature. There are many of those
folks being force into linux in the past and currently. Many of them are
older and some have lots of experience with assembler codes. All that
I have dealt with are bit agry that somebody did not tell them about
gentoo, a decade ago. ymmv.

> Before I first installed Gentoo way back in 2003, I did my research.  I
> researched my hardware, all sorts of options and read the handbook
> several times.  It took me a few tries to get it right but I did.  I
> don't recall asking anyone for help during that install process.  I just
> followed the handbook and learned from the few mistakes I made.  Later
> on, I learned how to customize things to suite my needs.  When I built
> my new rig a few years ago, I sat down, figured out what I wanted to use
> and adjusted the install process to suite that.  That effort was on me
> not someone else.  If I want to use LVM, RAID, BTRFS or something else
> that isn't included in the default install handbook, it's on me to
> figure out where to insert that part of my install.  When a person has
> used Linux for a while, they tend to learn about that sort of thing.
> Gentoo will pretty much make sure you do.

OK so that is a valid pathway, maybe 5%>? I worked under many source
code license restrictions in the late 80s and early 90s. I remember when
BSD* was the open source and linus was experimenting, at best.  It was the
unix license lawsuts that drove the open source development comunity from
*BSD to linus and his experiment (thank you AT&T, SCO, and Sun
microsystems.)I know tons of folks in that category, coming from a
university background. I was threated with a laysuit myself, personlly
be DEC executives, when we deleted Ultrix from a room full of Dec
unix workstations, and installed several different versions of X and BSD
on them. I had a meeting with them and walk them into other labs
where "my kids" had done the same thing to quit a few other unix machines
and they did not even believe it was possible. I've dealt with lots
of bullshit in my life; it only invigorates me. So, please, please, please
get on the train or get the hell out of my way. One way or another 
*GENTOO is going PRIME-TIME* !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I ran part of SURAnet's network in Florida. I hacked on proteon routers
before there was a cisco. I personally know dozens of folks that use
to have on cisco's codes, for free. WE wanted options other than proteon
as that company was run by a bunch of stiffs. I've seen large parts of 
cisco stack not only legally, but in the wild and at semiconductor companies
where they  build new product for companies like cisco. Much of cisco's tree
comes from semi-conductor vendors and it's crap code with
many problems, imho. Wanna Compare *nix experience? There are lots of folks,
like me, around gentoo. Most *never* give back because the eco_system is
bullshit and the heart of the bullshit is the install semantics, imho.
Obviously, others have different valid view and therefore gentoo is
extraordinarily multi-faceted with a plethora of pathway to gentoo-paradise.

So we differ on perspective. OK? Yours is vaild to you and is appreciated
by others. But, we are 180 degress polar opposites, just do you know. 


> While I could care less if someone creates a installer, I'm not going to
> use it.  I also won't recommend that someone new to Gentoo use it
> either.  If a person needs a installer to get a OS installed, they
> really need something besides Gentoo.  I doubt they are going to be
> happy in the end.  That doesn't even touch all the new users that are
> clueless coming here and the forums with the same questions that would
> be answered if they went through the manual install process.  I recall
> that back then too.

The situation is not so monotonically linear as you envision.
Users need to learn, some degree of expertise before experiencing
the full range of gentoo-derived benefits. Do you think everybody
needs to become a mechanic before they drive a really nice/fast/custom
ride?  No is my belief. So Gentoo enables us to both pursue what we
believe in our own comfortable-pathways. I got to fly an airplane
(cessna 180) when I was 6 years old. NO license, no hassle, even my
mom was was shocked when she found out, I even landed that sucker,
on my own. I did have a season bush pilot with me. But it was his
idea. He encouraged me, He guided me. And that has made all the difference
in my life. Now days you could get your license pulled. But many of
us think there are too many nay-sayers and regulators. No wonder our
kids do not dream big any more. Me, I say HELL YES TO GENTOO for EVERYBODY!

> Just my opinion.
> Dale

Your opinion and that of others is greatly respected and appreciated,
despite the resolve of my mindset. But, you and others should not continue
on the 'brow-beating' pathway that the handbook is the only pathway
to gentoo paradise. You have zero proof that the handbook is even needed
at all by folks. Certainly those that code in C/C++ and shell have never
needed the handbook. Not all that visit/test gentoo are in need of
mentoring. Many/Most technically astute folks that I've interacted with
look at gentoo's lack of easy install as a filter to discourage usage.
The look at it and leave. The handbook does appeal to those in the middle
or with lesser skills willing to pursue the handbook way of learning.
But millions of folks have learn/used *nix without the gentoo handbook. BSD
is probably a better teaching platform anyway. I have never ran into anyone
with a little bit of BSD competence that could not install gentoo in a snap.
Most did not like a variety of things about gentoo and left. I think the
maturity of Gentoo, portage, and the overlay semantics (now on git) will
allow gentoo to provide a fresh prospective to *nix folks. Let's face it,
the systemd turmoil is dis-lodging tons of folks, many technically astute,
from their current linux distros. That has created a wonderful, time
limited, opportunity for gentoo to snag lots of technically astute folks
into our paradise. But, we must strike hard and fast; and several pathways
of easy/trivial installation, will allow those with expertise and otherwise
the opportunity to taste, just how sweet and powerful gentoo has become.
We're going to shock quite a few folks and were going to add some more 'top
notch' devs to our stable  of 'show ponies'. ymmv.

So there are millions, of pathways to *nix paradise. Please stop with this
ridiculous belief that the gentoo handbook is the only valid pathway.

Once we have an easy installer semantic again, you will see what 
I'm talking about; and you'll have the right (privilege) to not
help those that have use the installer and not the handbook.

OK?

Can you or the others wonderful folks at gentoo-user think of any more
(pseudo) issues or additional PreQualifying Pathway Selection Questions?

Here are (8) of the current *developmental  pathways*, should you
want to help::

[1] http://releases.freeharbor.net/
[2] http://bluemoon.freeharbor.net
[3] http://lilblue.freeharbor.net
[4] http://bluedragon.freeharbor.net
[5] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:RelEng_GRS
[6] http://bluemoon-tinderbox.freeharbor.net
[7] http://lilblue-tinderbox.freeharbor.net
[8] http://bluedragon-tinderbox.freeharbor.net



peace,
James