Re: [gentoo-user] Re: minimal installation CD iso is where?, &&

[Alan McKinnon]

On 06/08/2015 18:34, James wrote:
> Alan McKinnon <alan.mckinnon <at> gmail.com> writes:
>
>
>> On 06/08/2015 11:13, Felix Miata wrote:
>>>> Gentoo is not supposed to be easy, but if you'd just followed the
>>>>  handbook you would have got what you wanted.
>>>> Choosing non-defaults breaks the flow, especially when a branch
>>>> explanation ends before an answer emerges. It probably would have been
> easy if only the
>>> first 3 or 4 Distrowatch columns existed and it had an empty systemd row.
>
>
> I think the Handbook is getting better and better. However the
> systemd-openrc choice is something that needs to be explained early in the
> handbook from a neutral prospective. Let's face it, lots of folks become
> interested in Gentoo, often when they hear that you do not have to run
> systemd. I'm not saying push one over the other, but explain and delineate
> that choice
> *early* in the handbook. WE owe the larger linux community that wisdom::
> that gentoo has made peace with systemd and openrc:: imho.

systemd-openrc is just one more choice the user has to make, except that
this one is interpreted as involving PID 1, in the minds of some this
seems to invoke large amounts of $MAGIC.

Where does it end?

Shall we detail glibc/uclibc/musl?
Firefox/Iceweasel?
openoffice/libreoffice?
udev/everything else?

What you say above seems to my mind to raise systemd vs openrc to an
artifical level of importance that it does not deserve. It's not like
you can't emerge -C the one and emerge the other

>
>
>> Forget everything Distrowatch says about Gentoo. It is written by
>> Distrowatch people trying to fit Gentoo into the Distrowatch mould, and
>> it does not work.
>
> Distrowatch is a fact of life. On the gentoo home page, maybe WE need to
> explain this concept and articulate the wisdom and peace that gentoo imparts
> on it's community:: albeit at the price/cost of investing time learning
> about linux and particularly gentoo. WE owe the larger linux community,
> clearly explained concepts on the homepage, imho.

WE will not ever do anything. Who is this mythical "we"?

Distrowatch's page on Gentoo will only change is someone gets in touch
and has the change made. There is no "we".

Why don't you do it?

>> Some folks complain about all the config choices that have to be made
>> when setting up a Gentoo system initially. Well, these folks entirely
>> miss the whole point of Gentoo - it is highly configurable, which means
>> choices. These choices have to be made and indicated at some point, at
>> the point to do that is right at the beginning, right in the middle of
>> the install process. It's how the distro works.
>
> Agreed. But we can (maybe eventually) offer more frequent live versions
> of gentoo, in a canned dvd(w/persistence) so that folks can test-drive
> gentoo, add a few packages and get comfortable before undertaking that long
> and winding manual install road? All it would take is spinning out more
> livedvd/sticks imho. Or, We could also point them to existing gentoo
> derivatives for a test-drive:: pentoo,  lilblue, sabayon, calculate etc etc
> first, if we are not going to roll more frequent live* images?
>
>  Maybe GRS (blueness) offers a bit more of a quickie?

There's that "we" again. If you want these things, set up an automated
build system that produces and publishes them. If you stuff is any good
and it gets traction, infra might be willing to take it onboard as
something official

>
>
>> I get the feeling from reading your posts that you are trying to
>> understand Gentoo by comparing it to a binary distro to find common
>> ground. That won't help, you run out of similarities very quickly.
>> Gentoo has to be understood on it's own terms, not in terms of how it
>> compares to say Fedora
>
> Kids always compare new foods to chocolate; that's just how it is.
> Delineating why gentoo is superior (and it is when you are mature enough)
> is what we do not do formally. Somebody (like Alan or Neil) really should
> write up article on this, put it on the home page and call it 'The Wisdom
> and Wonders of Gentoo' or some such marketing hyperbole. If for no other
> reason, so we do not have to continue with this 'educational intro to
> gentoo' on gentoo-user.

Now that is something I could do, it's close to my heart :-)

Neil might even be willing to edit out my more senior rambling moments :-)

> Of coarse the 'old farts' are right about what they spew here on the list.
> But, the simple, fundamental question is this:: do we really want to be a
> collective of intellectual smoots, or do we want a kinder and gentler
> reception for noobs to dabble in? Personally, I do not play basketball with
> folks my age:: it's a bummer to watch them struggle. I do play full-court
> basketball, with college age kids and it is the most wonderful joy a former
> athlete can have. That glistening of the youthful minds is great company
> for old farts. You guys really want to continue to frustrate these kids?
> Most of them have already had the 'shit kick out of them' intellectually in
> a globalize world; why do you think they seek refuge in gentoo?

Being smootish is something we should be careful about. I'm certain
no-one here does it deliberately (the few who look like they do are just
folk who happen to communicate rather bluntly).

But it's part of this thing called humanity where a technology that
requires a large skill set to set up is going to come across as elitist
to some. And there's no quick fix solution, just a bunch of folks who
remember to point it out when it seems needed to do so

I happen to like youngsters too. I'm now 50 since 25 and I've never
worked with people my own age. My sweet spot is folks 15 years younger,
I seem to "connect" with that age group better. And by happen
coincidence that is exactly the age Mrs Alan is :-)


>
> Let's jazz up our gentoo-sex-appeal  on the home page so we ALL look good.
> Moose anyone?
>
>
> Just a few random thoughts:: no intentions of scratching loose any dandruff.
>
>
> peace,
> James
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@×××××.com