Re: [gentoo-user] [OT] Linus Torvalds on systemd

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 5:34 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
<volkerarmin@××××××××××.com> wrote:
> Am 17.09.2014 um 23:03 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés:
>> On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>> <volkerarmin@××××××××××.com> wrote:
>>> Am 17.09.2014 um 21:52 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés:
>>>> On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 2:27 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>>>> <volkerarmin@××××××××××.com> wrote:
>>>>> Am 17.09.2014 um 21:02 schrieb Canek Peláez Valdés:
>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 1:36 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>>>>>> <volkerarmin@××××××××××.com> wrote:
>>>>>> [snip]
>>>>>>> Now you use this to advertise for systemd?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Systemd fanbois are becoming more and more desperate.
>>>>>> So, systemd is used (or it has been announced that is going to be
>>>>>> used) by default in all the major distributions, is available and
>>>>>> working great in Gentoo, and many Gentoo users and developers use it
>>>>>> happily.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, yeah, we are *really* desperate, obviously.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the laugh.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards.
>>>>> you will stop laughing when redhat&poettering abandon systemd because it
>>>>> is 'fundamentally broken' and must be replaced with something else.
>>>>>
>>>>> Probably as soon as everybody got used to it.
>>>>>
>>>>> And if I guess correctly, pulseaudio will be the driving force behind
>>>>> it. Because history loves repetition.
>>>> Sure Volker, whatever you say. I'm willing to bet the future stability
>>>> of my desktop and server machines that your doomsday-scenario will not
>>>> happen. Actually, I'm already betting on it.
>>>>
>>>> What are you willing to bet?
>>>>
>>>> Again, thanks for the laughs. You are a funny guy.
>>>>
>>>> Regards.
>>> I am not betting anything.
>> I figured it.
>>
>>> But I want you to think about something:
>>>
>>> devfs was the best thing since sliced bread.
>>> As soon as everybody used it, it was broken and replaced.
>>>
>>> hal was the best thing since sliced bread.
>>> As soon as everybody used it, it was broken and abandoned.
>>>
>>> *kit?
>>> The same.
>> Yeah. So it happened with XFree86, aRts, esd, gnome-vfs, DCOP,
>> sendmail, and it will happen again with dbus (I'm willing to bet it
>> will be replaced, at least in Linux, with kdbus). And, BTW, it's
>> happening with SysV being replaced in Linux with systemd.
>>
>> It happens all the time. It's a good thing. And it happened for *VERY*
>> different reasons in each case. Also, the transition has been
>> sometimes somewhat difficult (HAL comes to mind), but most of the
>> times really easy: we used devfs when I switched to Gentoo more than
>> 10 years ago, and I don't remember being difficult the switch to udev.
>> XFree86 => X.org was also basically trivial.
>>
>> Of course systemd can be replaced; if something cooler gets written,
>> we'll switch to it. But given the team behind systemd, and the design
>> it has, it's gonna be very difficult.
>>
>> Using Linus words, you are making excuses. You can compare systemd to
>> HAL, but doing so only shows that you don't know the code, the design,
>> and the history behind both projects.
>>
>> Regards.
>
> there was no breakage with xfree-to-xorg. True. But hal, yes. No upower
> breakage. *kit breakage. The list is too long to ignore.

There was no really breakage; some distributions dealed with those
change without issues. Gentoo is special; we didn't had the tools to
rebuild all the required dependencies some years ago. Heck, sometimes
we didn't had the dependencies right.

> Arts was not something whole systems depended upon. And whatever
> gnome-thingy you depend upon, you are fucked, because those guys are
> infected with the same mindset. As soon as the bugs are ironed out and
> everybody is using it: abandom it for something else.

Oh, Volker. You really make me laugh with your ignorance.

> That has nothing to do with 'improvement', or 'development' it is just
> stupid.

It's improvement; it's just your bigotry against GNOME/systemd, your
small mindedness and your myopic vision that makes you not notice it.

HAL is special; it was a (IMO misguided) attempt to be "portable" to
the *BSDs and similar systems. The natural conclusion was that those
guys need to take care of themselves, and that's one of the reasons
why systemd is not portable and only works in Linux.

In all the other cases, it's evolutiion:

• gnome-vfs begat GVFS, which works great.
• static /dev begat devfs, which begat udev, which works great.
• DCOP and gconf begat dbus, which works great, and it will beget
kdbus, which *will* be greater.
• aRts and esd begat PulseAudio, which works great.
• SysV begat Upstart, and together with ideas from launchd and SMF
begat systemd, which works great.

You just don't get it, because as Rich says it you aren't really
involved with the development of these technologies. It's a continous
evolution of software, sometimes using the old code, sometimes just
taking ideas, design, or learning from mistakes.

> AFAIR dcop was replaced, because of the freedesktop-gnome guys.

Oh my god; did they put a gun on their heads? It could not possible be
that dbus is so much better, right?

> Not because anything was wrong with it. And look where it got us. No
> improvement at all.

You just keep showing your ignorance. Go to the KDE mailing lists, and
tell them to get back to DCOP, becuase it was better.

They will laugh at you. Just as I'm doing right now.

Funny, funny guy.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México