Re: [gentoo-user] Systemd upower

[Canek Peláez Valdés]

On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 7:21 AM, Tanstaafl <tanstaafl@×××××××××××.org> wrote:
> On 6/3/2014 1:08 PM, Canek Peláez Valdés <caneko@×××××.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> Who is "forcing"  anything?
>
>
> I was specifically referring to your comment that:
>
>> The thing is, this is going to keep happening, as more and more
>> infrastructure migrates towards systemd.
>
> That comment right there - specifically the word *infrastructure* - screams
> to me 'we intend to take over the world'.

Well, yeah; that has been the objective from day 1. That systemd is
used by default by almost all Linux users and distributions. Nobody
has ever claimed anything on the contrary. And we are pretty advanced
in that objective, by the way.

That doesn't mean that anything is being force on anyone. SysV is
still available, and so it is OpenRC, and so it is pm-utils (although
it's been 5 years since last updated). Go on and use them if you want.

Oh, you want *someone else* to do that work for you? Sorry, is not
going to happen.

You want that ALL the infrastructure to keep working with something
else besides systemd? Go on and make it work with OpenRC, pm-utils,
ConsoleKit and HAL.

Oh, you want *someone else* to do that work for you? Sorry, not gonna happen.

If the people *IN CHARGE* of the infrastructure decides to use
systemd, they are not forcing nothing on no one. They are taking
*their code* and making it better by using the technologically
superior option.

> And yes, as devs get lazier (decide to rely on systemd rather than build it
> to work independently of the init system),

Really? They are lazy? That means is "easy" to not rely on systemd,
right? So go on and make their projects not to rely on systemd, if it
is so easy.

> this will in fact result in
> *users* (read: those lacking the skills to code every program out there to
> work without systemd) eventually being *forced* to switch to systemd.

NO THEY ARE NOT. Really, almost *all* the code we Linux users get to
use is a freakin' *GIFT*, and the developers responsible for it decide
to use A BETTER OPTION (like systemd is), and some people have the
*audacity* to call that "forcing" them something?

THE CODE IS FREE, for all the meanings of the word "free". Therefore,
there is no "forcing" of NOTHING on NO ONE.

There can't be.

Seriously, I haven't ever said what I'm about to say, but I'm getting
really tired of this same old discussion about some users thinking
they have the right to tell developers what they can or can't use in
their code.

You want your Linux to behave like the Unices of the 70's? Forget it;
that train is gone. Linux (as in mainstream) is going to use systemd
everywhere, from embedded to big iron, and that is for the best.

If you want a 70's-like Unix, go on and install FreeBSD.

> That is simply the reality. You can ignore it if you like, but it doesn't
> change it. Forced is forced.

No, it's a "reality" you invented in your head. Take the code and do
wonders with it; is free.

Oh, you can't? Then you are not being forced anything; you are just
unable to make the things work like you want.

That's totally different.

>> That's what you and many others don't seem to understand: systemd is a
>> *BETTER* implementation for basically *ALL* the hodgepodge of
>> "solutions" that we had before in our plumbing layer.
>
> Time will tell, and you may even be right. The problem is, average users
> really don't have a way to prove this to themselves, all we see is the
> wailing and gnashing of teeth as stuff constantly *breaks* that *never*
> broke before.

Really, Tanstaafl? Because in this list I usually see the *SAME* small
group of people complaining about systemd. From time to time some new
systemd user asks about some issues they found, but for the most part
they (with the list help) solve those issues.

And the world goes on. Users didn't abandoned Fedora, OpenSuse, Arch,
Debian nor Ubuntu "en masse" when they decided to switch to systemd.
There were complains, sure; but now it seems to have calmed down. Most
systemd users (wether they chose to use systemd or their distributions
did it for them) seem to be happy.

And guess what? They will not abandon Gentoo if it ever decides to
switch to systemd.

Although I'm pretty sure a small (tiny, really) number of
fundamentalist users will go to *BSD. And that's their choice.

Perhaps you should consider doing that? And I'm saying that with all
due respect; but be aware that on *BSD, the developers there also make
their own decisions.

If you want your systemd *exactly* the way you want it, you have to
write it yourself. Nobody is going to do it for you.

Regards.
-- 
Canek Peláez Valdés
Profesor de asignatura, Facultad de Ciencias
Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México