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On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 07:56:29PM +0100, Heiko Baums wrote: |
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> Am 21.12.2016 um 14:03 schrieb Rich Freeman: |
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> > I don't agree that you are "forced" |
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> > to use systemd. Maybe you might be forced to use a different browser |
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> > or fork your browser or patch it or stick with an old version and |
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> > backport security fixes if you want to use it without systemd some |
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> > day. |
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> |
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> And there it is again this silly argument and this twisting of words. |
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> Typical for those Poettering fanboys. |
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> |
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> > But, if the entire Firefox developer community quit and decided |
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> > to do something else (a la Thunderbird) you'd be in a similar boat. |
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> > Sometimes you get what you pay for. |
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> |
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> And this again. You know the difference between OpenSource and ClosedSource? |
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> |
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> You pay for ClosedSource. For OpenSource you don't need to pay. But I |
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> have neither time nor energy to explain you the philosophy (before |
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> Poetterix) of OpenSource. But I can tell you this much. OpenSource and |
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> its developers usually have no commercial intentions. It seems to be |
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> different for Poettering and his fanboys. |
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> |
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> > I get that people who want to avoid systemd are frustrated by this, |
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> > but honestly it feels like spitting against the wind at this point. |
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> |
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> And the arrogance and ignorance of Poettering's and his fanboys' again. |
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> |
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> > I |
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> > was frustrated back when everybody stopped taking care of kde-3.5 and |
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> > kde-4 wasn't really ready and was a resource hog on older systems. I |
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> > switched to xfce for a while, because ultimately I can't demand that |
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> > the kde project cater to my whims. |
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> |
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> Just compare apples and oranges. Also typical for Poettering and his |
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> fanboys. |
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> |
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> The situation with KDE has nothing - and I mean nothing - to do with the |
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> situation with systemd. But I have neither time nor energy to explain |
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> that, too. I would talk to a wall anyway. |
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> |
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> > In general though, nobody is required to engage in |
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> > debates/arguments/etc here, or even read your posts. People choose to |
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> > participate in list discussions just as they choose what software they |
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> > want to maintain. |
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> |
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> There they are again: The apples and the oranges. |
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> |
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> Heiko Baums |
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> |
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|
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I'm getting the feeling that others would be more receptive to your |
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communication if you weren't belittling them with name-calling. I |
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personally feel similarly about systemd and Poettering, but it's more |
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effective to target ideas and behaviors rather than people. Targeting |
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people will -- understandably -- cause them to become defensive, which |
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will only make them dig their heels in and decide you aren't worth |
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conversing with. I don't think that's your intention. |
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|
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Rich has a point that we're dependent on code we don't write. So when a |
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project goes in a direction we don't like, we have three options: go |
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along with it, reject it and use something different, or fork it. |
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|
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Most choose 1 or 2 because 3 is demanding and often requires a team. |
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Teams are hard, wetware is hard. |
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|
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I'm 100% with you on the political front. As long as we have distros |
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that respect that choice -- Gentoo, Devuan, etc. -- we still retain the |
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ability to "dodge" projects like systemd or Firefox. Life may become a |
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bit more difficult due to learning a new package, or finding a new |
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project that "speaks to you", but ultimately libre software developers |
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are volunteers and we can't force them to do anything. This is the |
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Bazaar at work. |
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|
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Ironically, there are parallels to this and the idea of markets. If a |
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vendor isn't providing what you want, do you attack them or simply go to |
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another vendor? In libre software, mindshare and participation are |
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currency. Taking your currency somewhere else is the best way to show |
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that you don't approve of a project's direction. Blog posts, forks, or |
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participation in other (competing) projects shows that you care enough |
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to devote time to it. Most in the community respect someone who "puts |
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their money where their mouth is", so to speak. Taking part and getting |
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involved shows that you care and are willing to help make goals become |
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reality. |
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|
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So, what can you or others do about Firefox? Use another browser. Help |
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them out, even if it's testing or bug reports. That stuff matters. I've |
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already started looking for another browser, myself, since I plan to |
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excise PA from my system again some time. It can definitely be done. |
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|
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At some point, you have to ask yourself, "How much do I care about |
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this?" If you care enough, you will do something about it. It's my hope |
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that my e-mail inspires you to become more active in libre software. |
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|
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TLDR: You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. |