Re: [gentoo-user] systemd installation location

[Alan McKinnon]

On 01/10/2013 00:14, pk wrote:
> On 2013-09-30 08:45, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>
>> That is over-simplifying the problem and trivializing it. No-one ever
>> said the *everythign* in /usr is criticial for boot.
>
> Is it really over-simplyfying it? How am I supposed to know whatever
> comes next? Someone ("upstream") *may* find it boot-critical to have
> 'Space Invaders' operational during boot. Yes, I say that somewhat
> *tounge-in-cheek* but the way things are going I'm not so sure anymore...

There are many examples in /usr you could have used to illustrate your
point, such as many fuse modules. And yet you chose an imaginary space
invader game.

Let's rather stick within the bounds of what is feasible, OK?

>> This is the problem:
>>
>> a. There exists code used at boot and early-user space time. It is
>> critical that this code is available when needed.
>
> I fully understand this and *if* I ever were to install code that I
> *knew* had this dependency I would take a serious look if I really
> *need* it and only then install it. But it would be up to me to make
> that decision and take the necessary steps.

But it's not just you. You are not running LFS, you are running Gentoo.
It has ebuilds and ebuilds put the generated files somewhere, and that
destination is the same for every user of that ebuild.

Unix, by design and unlike a traditional mainframe OS, does not
distinguish between different types of files and does limit where you
can put files. This has two consequences - you can do virtually anything
you like with it as everything is a file, and filesystem files and
structure have been moved out to human space in the hands of the
sysadmin/packager/maintainer/user or whatever. Some sanity must prevail.

The Linux boot process can conceivably run any arbitrary code it needs
to run to get userspace into a runnable state. This can easily be code
that we haven't conceived of yet and becuase it is Unix, it could reside
anywhere. Also because it's Unix and because sysadmins have learned over
the years we constrain ourselves to putting the code in the bin, sbin
and lib directories in / and in /usr.

Clearly, there is a massive distinction between code there and in say
/opt or /var/lib, that is why you won't find boot-critical code there.
But there is no such clear distinction between / and /usr. What *you*
think is not boot critical may be criticial for someone else.

And here's the kicker:

You don't get to decide for the other guy. But the packager gets to
support him, and has to edit ebuilds to install all the necessary code
not in /usr but in /. And they have to do this over and over and over,
and while they are doing that they have to answer users like you who are
complinaing about unneccessary rebuilds just to change the desitnation
of a few files.

This is a no-win-ever situation for devs and they have decided they are
not doing it anymore and have made a decision to not support separate
/usr without initramfs. that is their right as you do not pay them a salary.

This is the correct decision for Gentoo to have made, as the problem is
open ended and is never completed, plus there is no clear distinction
between what is boot critical in the general case and what is not. if
you can't see or understand that, then we have nothing more to discuss.

If you don't like what Gentoo has done then I recommend you take it like
a man and fork. Assume the maintenanceburden yourself.


>
>> b. One cannot predict with absolute certainty 100% of the time what
>> exactly that critical code is.
>
> In a general manner, no, you are correct... Also, see above
> ("Invaders")... (And if you don't understand what I'm trying to say, I'm
> saying this is as *arbitrary* as it gets - which you, like me, seem to
> be opposed to["arbitrariness"])
>
>> c. many reasonable setups turn out to have such critical code in /usr,
>> and this cannot be reliably predicted in advance
>
> So I avoid things like Gnome, pulseaudio, systemd and similar stuff like
> the plague but I *still* shall be forced to use whatever is dictated by
> these things[1]? Don't get me wrong, if anyone wants to install Gnome or
> whatever then they should have the restrictions required by it.
>
>> Your second paragraph reveals that you beleive you already know
>> everything you need to have to boot your system. Now do the same for
>> every possible Gentoo user out there and have it work 100% of the time
>> in ALL valid cases.
>
> I *do* know everything I need to have to boot my system. I carefully
> select my hardware and I take particular care of how I set up my system
> thank you very much. But apparently my system is no longer deemed a
> "valid case"... so I'm obviously not a "possible Gentoo user" anymore.
>
>> Do you now see the problem and the fulls cope and impact of it?
>
> I've seen it since *long* before this thread started. The main problem
> is lack of resources (because of stupid decisions upstream which puts a
> burden on Gentoo devs) and I can't (currently) help much with that other
> than through monetary means (donations) but since Gentoo seems to go the
> way of the dodo for me (or "assimilated" if you will) then I will take
> my leave. For a while now it has only been inertia keeping me here. Or
> maybe a hope that things will get better...
>
> [1] And no, I'm not blaming systemd, Gnome or any of the other "pests"
> in particular for this...
>
> Best regards
>
> Peter K
>


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckinnon@×××××.com