Re: [gentoo-user] kernel 3.8 and external drivers

[Alexander Schwarz]

Am 12.03.2013 11:01, schrieb Yuri K. Shatroff:
> On 12.03.2013 12:46, Alexander Schwarz wrote:
>> Am 12.03.2013 08:33, schrieb Yuri K. Shatroff:
>>>
>>> Again, following your logic, why not just let the user himself
>>> ./configure && make && make install as in old days? What is portage
>>> for?
>>
>> Following your logic, if there's even one tool to make life easier
>> everything has to be absolutely easy. So we should now utilize fancy
>>  wizards? Once again, that's following your logic.
>
> not "has to be easy", but definitely, with such purpose.
> Do you disagree? Perhaps you reckon that the whole purpose of computing
> is to make life harder? :)
>

Ok, I know that comparisons are sometimes silly and known to not work at 
times, but here is what I think is currently happening:
There's a long street with various bars. One of them is named "Ubuntu", 
another is called "Fedora" and there's a much smaller bar called "Gentoo".
Every bar has a sign in front, telling everyone what to expect. The sign 
in front of the bar "Ubuntu" states: "free drinks, served by people, 
brought to you. On the other hand we only serve 3 different drinks".
The sign before the bar "Gentoo" states: "please mix your drinks as you 
like, we're not going to serve them to you, we only provide the 
ingredients for free".

Now, most people gather in the bar "Ubuntu" because it does exactly what 
they want: free drinks, nicely served, no worries. But there's also a 
smaller group that prefers exotic drinks, they want to mix freely. So 
they visit "Gentoo" for years.

One day somebody walks in: "oh, uhm, nice bar but why do I have to mix 
drinks myself"? The people in that bar (Gentoo) reply kindly: "well, we 
like it that way, because we want to make sure that those drinks only 
contain what we want in them. "
The stranger replies: "Well, here are just few people, you shouldn't mix 
your own drinks. I think it should be much easier than that."
The guests kindly reply: "Yeah, we totally understand that, but why 
don't you just go to that other bar, called "Ubuntu"? It does EXACTLY 
what you want, no worries."
The stranger replies: "No, you must change, because you need more guests."
The guests reply again: "Yes, but this bar was exactly made this way as 
we like it. It's our place where we are happy. If you turned it into a 
second Ubuntu then we would have no home anymore."

To put it blunt and simple: you're asking a distribution to change 
because you don't like it. Your point is that things don't have to stay 
like they are forever. That is probably a very good point but it rises 
the question: if every single distribution is "easy mode", what's left 
for all the people who're more into doing stuff the hard way?
If Gentoo was the only distribution you would have a really really good 
point and I would jump on your side in a second, as I'm a fan of "make 
it easy for the average user", too. But there's so much choice out there 
that doesn't cost you a penny. So there's simply no need for Gentoo to 
become easy mode, because there are other distributions filling that 
spot quite easily.


> Sorry I didn't get what you meant by *this*. All I'm trying to say is
> that every software is for the user, and blaming user for software
> deficiencies is unfair. I regard the case in question as a deficiency.
> Would you disagree? I can't find a basis to think the opposite, but if
> you can, I'd be interested. :)

I stated it above: Gentoo is filling a niche. It's exactly aimed towards 
people who like to tinker, figure stuff out and tailor a system to their 
likings. Every decision you take away from the user makes it easier for 
the user but in turn limits your capabilities to change a system to your 
likings. So, there's quite a logical reason if you stop seeing Gentoo as 
the distribution of choice for the average user.


>
> I'm mixing up as long as both linux and gentoo and other software are
> software which all serve one purpose: to solve user's tasks. And as
> for me, all principles are the consequences of this, and not the
> opposite.
> I don't like the way of personification you resort to (including your
> opinion of what I do or want which can not be correct), but
> personally, even not being a beginner, I do not expect things to break
> every now and then. Probably that's why I'm using Gentoo: because the
> breakage probability in it (if used properly) is less than in some
> other distro which is not under one's control.
> I suppose, most users don't care what for Gentoo was meant, why it
> fares the way it fares: users care for the way it suits their needs.
> As for me, saying "if this or that don't work, you guys must know that
> this distro wasn't meant for working right..." is like "you are too
> stupid to use it" or even more humiliating.
>

Most users don't even care for Gentoo because the installation process 
is complicated (the documentation is great, however). See Gentoo as a 
distribution for mechanics, while Ubuntu is a car that works for everyone.
Once again: you want to turn Gentoo into something it is not. All the 
time you've complained here you could've just used a distribution that 
does exactly what you want. That is highly illogical.


>
> I'm sorry for having you see things I didn't mean, and also sorry for
> starting this "personalities exchange" since I don't think that
> mailing lists are a good place for personal opinions.

This I do agree and I will not post further on this matter. If you want 
you can send me an email and we can continue that discussion but I guess 
we shouldn't further annoy our fellow mailing list friends.