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On 12.03.2013 12:46, Alexander Schwarz wrote: |
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> Am 12.03.2013 08:33, schrieb Yuri K. Shatroff: |
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>> |
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>> Again, following your logic, why not just let the user himself |
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>> ./configure && make && make install as in old days? What is portage |
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>> for? |
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> |
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> Following your logic, if there's even one tool to make life easier |
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> everything has to be absolutely easy. So we should now utilize fancy |
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> wizards? Once again, that's following your logic. |
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|
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not "has to be easy", but definitely, with such purpose. |
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Do you disagree? Perhaps you reckon that the whole purpose of computing |
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is to make life harder? :) |
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|
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>> |
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>> That is a testing issue. Of course, one can never know what will |
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>> change, or whether the code contains a bug (before one is |
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>> detected), but when someone *does* stumble upon such issues, it is |
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>> up to maintainers to update portage to prevent the issue... that's |
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>> what portage is for, isn't it? That said, the topic starter has run |
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>> across an issue and I assume the action to be taken by the package |
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>> maintainer is to add a test against kernel compatibility and |
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>> eligibility of the native driver, so that in the future the issue |
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>> not rise again. Am I right? Or do I completely misunderstand the |
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>> purpose of portage, and everything? |
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> |
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> First of all: Gentoo relies on volunteers to do work as testing. If |
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> something fails they CAN report it (like he did via this userlist). |
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> You're requesting enterprise features (everything tested to a great |
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> extent for every piece of hardware)? That's cool, because you can |
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> help. Just invest some time and help testing, everyone would be |
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> grateful. Without those reports portage can't know. It's a tool and |
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> not a thinking human being, as such it's limited in many ways. How |
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> should it know that something will break other things if nobody tells |
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> it? |
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|
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The case in question is exactly that: the user (Daniel Wagener) |
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experienced an issue and reported it. He was *the* tester. He |
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encountered a problem. He helped. He wrote *the* report. I believe he is |
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to be thanked, rather than to blame. Maybe he expressed his feelings too |
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harshly, but it's comprehensible to an extent. |
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|
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>>>> 4. How and why would you expect to force all users to grep thru |
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>>>> kernel src in search for a driver they might need, especially |
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>>>> when the portage explicitly lists this driver? Also sometimes |
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>>>> kernel drivers' description is not quite consistent and it is |
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>>>> not easy to figure out whether it supports exactly yours |
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>>>> card/chip/device, or moreover find it by grep. |
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>>> |
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>>> All kernel source? grep? Nope. Just reading a bit of help text. |
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>>> Maybe using google. Doing it once. |
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>> |
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>> As I said, there is not always good help text for kernel options. |
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>> |
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> |
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> I tend to agree but then again: why even bother compiling the Linux |
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> kernel if it's too tedious? |
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|
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Not quite. The big deal is not compiling the kernel itself, but finding |
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out options which are applicable or conversely useless for one. And |
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don't say that's an easy task even for those who are familiar. |
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I personally am not always in mood to tinker with those new |
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CONFIG_SOMETHING_WHICH_NOBODY_YET_UNDERSTANDS_WHAT_IT_S_FOR_AND_IS_GONNA_BE_RENAMED_AFTER_TWENTY_EIGHT_VERSIONS |
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which neither kernel.org nor google can clearly explain. But then it |
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turns out that you need that (or need that removed) for another thingy |
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to work. |
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Probably the task of "just compiling the kernel" appears to user much |
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more horrible than it really is. Not counting the options... |
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|
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>>> Then you have a working setup you can use for the rest of |
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>>> eternity (or the next couple of years...) |
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>> |
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>> Okay, and when someone like the topic starter *did* have a working |
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>> setup with the "superfluous" driver from portage, ... do you feel |
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>> the logic? :) When should one realize that this setup is no more |
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>> working? I guess, just after it stopped working, right? :) Of |
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>> course, again, if one is really concerned he will check each kernel |
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>> release or whatever for the new stuff he's concerned about, but |
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>> when all *worked*, why should he? |
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> There are distributions out there who take care of *this*. Instead |
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> of utilizing them you're trying to redefine Gentoo in a manner that |
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> more suits you. This is highly illogical, as alternatives are out |
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> there with the exact same thing you'd like to see. |
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|
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Sorry I didn't get what you meant by *this*. All I'm trying to say is |
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that every software is for the user, and blaming user for software |
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deficiencies is unfair. I regard the case in question as a deficiency. |
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Would you disagree? I can't find a basis to think the opposite, but if |
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you can, I'd be interested. :) |
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|
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>> so, according to that, everyone who's striving to get |
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>> linux/gentoo/whtever more user-friendly (including portage's key |
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>> features) is an ubuntoid? You know, I came from FreeBSD where |
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>> you're supposed to do much more work by hand, and after a dozen |
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>> years I'm a little bit tired of that. I *can* do without things |
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>> like portage's colorful output, for example (although it's helpful |
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>> most of the time). But I really dislike things broken e.g. on |
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>> `portupgrade -aR` and the sort and I can *not* call a system which |
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>> allows that a quality system. That sort of user-friendliness has |
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>> nothing to do with ubuntism ("we know better what you want") and |
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>> visual beauty: that's about quality. (I know that there's no |
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>> absolute quality, but when a system tends to fail, and justifies |
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>> that with "user not having googled or having taken a way we, devs, |
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>> didn't ever think to go" -- it's at least incorrect if not |
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>> arrogant.) |
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> |
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> You're mixing up Linux and distributions. Linux is a kernel, not |
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> more, not less. If the distribution is user friendly or not is |
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> defined for every single distribution. The problem I see here: you |
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> want Gentoo to do certain things for you which is in direct conflict |
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> to Gentoo's principles. Gentoo really was never meant for the |
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> beginner, nor was it meant for the expert who just wants to USE |
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> things and SOMETIMES change crucial parts of the system. |
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|
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I'm mixing up as long as both linux and gentoo and other software are |
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software which all serve one purpose: to solve user's tasks. And as for |
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me, all principles are the consequences of this, and not the opposite. |
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I don't like the way of personification you resort to (including your |
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opinion of what I do or want which can not be correct), but personally, |
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even not being a beginner, I do not expect things to break every now and |
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then. Probably that's why I'm using Gentoo: because the breakage |
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probability in it (if used properly) is less than in some other distro |
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which is not under one's control. |
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I suppose, most users don't care what for Gentoo was meant, why it fares |
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the way it fares: users care for the way it suits their needs. As for |
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me, saying "if this or that don't work, you guys must know that this |
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distro wasn't meant for working right..." is like "you are too stupid to |
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use it" or even more humiliating. |
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|
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> In my personal opinion it's highly arrogant to download a |
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> distribution, seeing that you obviously don't like it (which is |
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> absolutely fine) and then jump on the mailing list. Patronizing |
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> everyone and telling them how that system should exactly change that |
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> it's acceptable in your eyes. |
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|
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> But, that's the whole beauty of open source: you can do things |
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> exactly your way by forking, helping as a dev/tester, developing your |
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> own things if you hate them, etc... And before you tell me: "you want |
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> to troll me". Nope, I'm dead serious. Open source is all about |
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> getting involved if you want to change things. Other certain |
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> operating systems don't even give you that choice and are more like: |
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> like it or leave it. |
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|
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I'm also involved. Even participating on the list and expressing my |
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opinion does it. |
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Though in this very case, I just said (and it was really *all* I wanted |
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to say), don't blame the guy for the fact which is clearly (to me) an |
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issue of the package. Did I say that since there's such an issue then |
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the whole gentoo is bad? :) Or that smth else is bad? No. If you still |
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maintain that it was not an issue but "the way it's meant to be", it's |
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your option, and I have exhausted my arguments. :) |
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|
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I'm sorry for having you see things I didn't mean, and also sorry for |
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starting this "personalities exchange" since I don't think that mailing |
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lists are a good place for personal opinions. |
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|
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-- |
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Best wishes, |
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Yuri K. Shatroff |