Re: [gentoo-user] Re: [OT] Linus Torvalds on systemd

[Rich Freeman]

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 5:18 PM, James <wireless@×××××××××××.com> wrote:
> Rich Freeman <rich0 <at> gentoo.org> writes:
>>On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 3:28 PM, James <wireless@×××××××××××.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>> Linus should make a clear, leadership statement that there will
>>> always be a path for folks to use another mechanism besides systemd
>>> in the linux kernel; This does not have to be a systemd vs cgroups
>>> discussion, but it being presented this way. A clear statement of
>>> multiplicity will put this issue to rest once and for all. By not
>>> stating clearly was is obvious, many technically astute folks are
>>> looking for options. Surely a fork is emminent and it will most
>>> likely be the best thing to happen to linux, as the entire kernel
>>> development process has become tainted by those with billions of
>>> dollars.
>
>> Uh, the only thing the Linux kernel does is spawn a single process as
>> PID 1 and offer a VERY STABLE system call interface for that and
>> future processes to make requests.  Nobody is going to break sysvinit
>> if that happens to be the thing you tell Linux to execute as PID 1.
>
> OK, where are your performance studies on how wonderful systemd is?
> Simple (2) identical system except for systemd only on one. Run a
> wide variety of tests, publish the data.
>
> Publish perfomanced metrics; Choice; Unreasonable?

What does your reply have to do with my email?  You asked for a clear
statement from Linus that there will always be a way to boot linux
without systemd.  I simply stated that this was nonsensical, because
there is nothing specific to any init implementation in linux.  Linux
is a kernel, and it launches exactly one process.  All the stuff
you're arguing about happens in userspace.  Sure, sooner or later
kdbus is likely to be added to the kernel, but just like dbus nobody
has to use it, and I'm sure like anything else in the kernel you won't
have to build it if you don't want it.

I really could care less about impressing you with systemd metrics.
If you want to believe that it has no value, fine.

>
>> Whether anybody else actually supports sysvinit is a different matter.
>> I'm sure it will be around in Gentoo for a long time, and those with
>> official Gentoo support contracts will get the same care they are used
>> to.  :)
>
> I'm not sure if this is a threat, a promise or are you just trash talkin
> with me now?

Hint, the ":)" means that I'm joking.  My point is that nothing is
going to break sysvinit, but that doesn't mean that somebody is going
to build a fancy Linux system for you based on it.  The fact is that
nobody is paying a dime to use Gentoo linux, and whether sysvinit is
or isn't supported, in practice the amount of guaranteed support
you're going to get for it either way is zero.

Nobody is threatening to kill your kitten.  Nobody is offering to feed
it forever, either.  There are plenty of Gentoo devs who prefer
sysvinit, so I doubt it will go away anytime soon.  Gentoo is about
choice.  But, over the years there have also been plenty of choices
that went away.  If you REALLY care about sysvinit then you should
consider contributing more than emails.

>
> Besides, there is another thing you are not considering. The world of
> embedded linux >> user linux. So, the embedded designers are all
> wonderfully in line with systemd?  Have you been to any of those
> forums? They live by cgroups, because a few folks showed them how
> to minimize embedded systems with age old state diagrams. Have you
> offered them the systemd or highway plan yet?

So, the only widespread consumer devices that I'm aware of that run
Gentoo derivatives run neither sysvinit nor systemd - they run
upstart, despite upstart not even being in the portage tree, or a
single upstart configuration script.  Heck, they probably sell more
devices running upstart than there are devices running Ubuntu.

Sure, that isn't really what I'd call embedded, but my point is that
people doing embedded work are going to tailor whatever they have to
in order to get the results they want.  I wouldn't be surprised if
many of embedded devices don't even run sysvinit.  Gentoo is a great
starting point for an embedded system precisely because it is so
adaptable, but we don't have any configurations that I'd really call
"plug and play" for the embedded world, nor do I think such a
one-size-fits-all configuration is even possible when you're concerned
about every byte of RAM or milliwatt of power.

> It's not me, Rich, it lots of other technically astute folks that
> are not happy. I just want choice.

Sure, and I'd like a pony.  The fact is that on Gentoo you have
choice.  You may or may not have it forever, but nobody is paying for
Gentoo so nobody can count on ANYTHING in Gentoo being around forever.
You'll have it as long as somebody cares to support it.  We allow
proxy maintainers - that somebody could even be you.

Nobody owes anybody a roadmap for a community-based distro.  If you
want somebody to "owe" you something then use a distro that is
commercially supported.  Of course, if your goal is to avoid using
systemd, good luck with that.  :)

--
Rich