1 |
On Thu, 2006-08-24 at 14:00 -0700, Donnie Berkholz wrote: |
2 |
> A distribution is more than just an entity that packages upstream |
3 |
> tarballs. I agree with your point, but it misses a large chunk of what |
4 |
> we do. |
5 |
|
6 |
We also have releases. |
7 |
|
8 |
Another thing that we do is fix bugs, even in upstream packages, and |
9 |
submit them to the upstream. In this regard, we are a valuable member |
10 |
of the community as a whole. How many patches have come out of Gentoo |
11 |
to fix bugs/vulnerabilities? |
12 |
|
13 |
> If this is the Gentoo vision, then why are we even doing anything else? |
14 |
> We've already reached our only goal, which is packaging stuff, and all |
15 |
> we need to do is bump it. |
16 |
|
17 |
I surely hope this isn't the vision, or I've been wasting an awful lot |
18 |
of time. |
19 |
|
20 |
> > Except ... even today, folks simply aren't empowered to vote on every |
21 |
> > decision (other than by voting with their feet). Your hypothesis |
22 |
> > seems to be based on a flawed model of how Gentoo works, I'm afraid. |
23 |
> |
24 |
> "Official" votes, sure. But what about GLEP discussions on -dev? That's |
25 |
> the only way anything major ever happens, and it might as well be a |
26 |
> requirement for a unanimous vote among all ~350 developers. The only |
27 |
> time I can recall even a single dissenter before a GLEP moved on to the |
28 |
> council was brix on Sunrise. |
29 |
|
30 |
I was there, too. Of course, I also prove some of your points. I got |
31 |
tired of giving the same arguments ad nauseum. I eventually gave up |
32 |
fighting it to move on to other things. I will admit that many of my |
33 |
concerns were resolved. |
34 |
|
35 |
> > The basic cause always comes down to weak or non-existent management. |
36 |
> |
37 |
> Yes, and that's exactly my point. We need stronger management. |
38 |
|
39 |
Indeed. |
40 |
|
41 |
> >> All in all, the vocal minority has done a splendid job of becoming more |
42 |
> >> influential, crippling Gentoo's ability to do anything at all about its |
43 |
> >> members, their flames, their outstanding work at ruining people's fun |
44 |
> >> and enjoyment of Gentoo, and their waste of everyone else's time. |
45 |
> > |
46 |
> > Can you back this up with three examples in the last twelve months |
47 |
> > where this has happened? |
48 |
|
49 |
Sunrise (twice) |
50 |
Pretty much anything dealing with portage features (or lack thereof) |
51 |
|
52 |
> Any long debate where more than 25% of the posts came from a single person. |
53 |
|
54 |
I know that I've been a participant in at least one of these. I've also |
55 |
noticed it an started to "dial back" my responses to try to stay more |
56 |
on-topic and technical. Having a nice release helps to curb the free |
57 |
time for replying to emails, too. ;] |
58 |
|
59 |
> > Our problem is that we have a critical mass of groups who do not share |
60 |
> > a culture to bind them together, and drive them to overcome their |
61 |
> > differences. |
62 |
> |
63 |
> I'll agree with that. |
64 |
|
65 |
As would I. |
66 |
|
67 |
> I know this is partially changing, but I'm unsure that any group outside |
68 |
> of the council will ever be trusted to suspend or kick people out. |
69 |
|
70 |
I agree with this pretty strongly, if only because the council is an |
71 |
elected group. |
72 |
|
73 |
> > Folks don't vote on stuff. To pick a recent example, none of the |
74 |
> > folks who opposed Sunrise actually had any means to vote to prevent it |
75 |
> > happening. What they had to do was to lobby the council, who were the |
76 |
> > only folks with a vote. |
77 |
> |
78 |
> Oh, gimme a break. Screaming about it on -dev for hundreds of posts |
79 |
> isn't just equivalent to a vote, it's better. It makes people think |
80 |
> there's more than 2 developers opposed to it. |
81 |
|
82 |
Really? Even you didn't remember that *I* was opposed to Sunrise and |
83 |
probably accounted for at least a good 50 responses. Yes, good came |
84 |
from it. Yes, it could have been done much, much better. |
85 |
|
86 |
> I'd rather get rid of devrel altogether (at least its conflict |
87 |
> resolution role) and have the council deal with this. |
88 |
|
89 |
Agreed. |
90 |
|
91 |
> > I'm not standing for election, but maybe someone who is would be |
92 |
> > interested in investigating some ideas Sejo discussed with me when he |
93 |
> > left us. The summary is my own; hopefully I've captured Sejo's ideas |
94 |
> > accurately. |
95 |
> > |
96 |
> > * Every staff member has to belong to a team. You join a team by |
97 |
> > being voted onto the team by the other members of the team. They |
98 |
> > don't vote you in, you can't join. |
99 |
|
100 |
I don't think his ideas included anything explicit. Only more that the |
101 |
team (or even just the lead) could give a thumbs down to you joining. |
102 |
|
103 |
> > * If you're not part of any team, your rights and privileges as a |
104 |
> > staff member are automatically terminated. There's no place to go to |
105 |
> > appeal. |
106 |
|
107 |
I think the intention was for the council to be the appellate body. |
108 |
|
109 |
> > * You can be voted off the team at any time. The teams are self-managing. |
110 |
|
111 |
I'm sure a vote wasn't necessary. |
112 |
|
113 |
> The goal? |
114 |
|
115 |
Hopefully, to streamline processes and give power back to individual |
116 |
projects to govern themselves in internal matters and let people get |
117 |
back to doing development. That's a goal I would love to see us strive |
118 |
to achieve in the next year. |
119 |
|
120 |
-- |
121 |
Chris Gianelloni |
122 |
Release Engineering - Strategic Lead |
123 |
x86 Architecture Team |
124 |
Games - Developer |
125 |
Gentoo Linux |