Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

[Seemant Kulleen]

On Fri, 2007-07-13 at 10:33 -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote:

> *sigh*

It seems impossible to have any sort of discussion with you (unless one
is in agreement with you, of course, and then one is "clear headed")
without eliciting a *sigh* -- I don't think it's particularly the
healthiest way to have one.  If you simply don't like disagreement, then
please be clear about that.

> Why is it that everyone always assumes everything the Council does is
> "out to get Ciaran" rather than something we see as a good global
> solution to our current problems?

Well, it would be great if the council can clearly outline what exactly
our current problems are.  Maybe if you presented those problems and
then presented the proposed solutions to them, things would be easier to
understand?


> Here's a little hint for all of you conspiracy theorists out there.
>
> If all we wanted was to get rid of Ciaran, we'd just have a fucking vote
> to get rid of Ciaran and make all of this *SO* much simpler on
> ourselves.

This is again a disparaging and unhealthy way to have a discussion.  I'm
going to request that if you will respond to my notes, please do so with
some modicum of civility and respect.  If you find yourself unable to do
so, then please do not respond to me at all.

> We're trying to solve the problem of people, *ALL* people, treating each
> other like complete crap on our lists.  The "problem" has been an issue
> of discipline.  We've simply got too many people who are too scared to
> take any actions to resolve these problems.  Why do you think Developer
> Relations has all of these procedures and policies for retiring
> developers?  Is it because we need all of that to determine if someone
> has crossed the line?  No.  It's because we have a large number of
> developers (or possibly even just a very vocal minority) who complain
> about every single damn thing anyone ever does and it has been much
> simpler to make up these ridiculous guidelines and rules to follow in an
> attempt to curb the dissenters than it is to just deal with them.

Well, your own method of responding to my note is a good example of
treating others like crap.  How do we solve that?  The problem with
moderation is that nobody censors speech with which they agree, but
quick to censor that with which they don't.

So, here we have an example of one of the possible problems that you
alluded to earlier: a vocal minority unable to pick its battles, and
which engages in endless nitpicking.  Why not just have the "fucking
vote to get rid of [them] and make all of this *SO* much simpler on
ourselves" then? Why should the vast majority of people on this list
have to pay for what is, evidently, a minority?

If, on the other hand, it's not a minority, then doesn't that indicate
that the issue is on a deeper level?  And if so, wouldn't it be more
prudent to try and solve that one, instead?


> I say drop the rules to something simple that makes sense, boot the
> troublemakers, and ignore the dissenters.  I'll gladly help anyone make
> up any procmail recipes they need to filter their mail.  Let's get back
> to developing and leave the politics to Obama and Hillary.

This is a little worrisome, you know.  Perhaps you didn't mean this set
of statements to sound as all-encompassing as all that.  Isn't dissent
and disagreement the result of differing points of view, which could
actually benefit Gentoo?

My thought is this: everyone should try and evaluate their own behaviour
on this list, and the method in which they treat others.  If each of us
actually thought about the effects of our attitudes, this discussion
might well be moot.

Thanks,

Seemant