Re: [gentoo-dev] License criteria for Gentoo

[Karan]

* Moritz Schulte (moritz@×××××××××××××××.de) wrote:
> "Kevyn Shortell" <kevyn@×××.com> writes:
>
> Hello,
>
> let me first clarify this: it is not my intention to nor could I
> "force" anyone to use the name GNU/Linux instead of Linux.  But what
> we can do of course is discussing this topic.
>
> > I think that's a bastardization of the name, and it's doing a
> > disservice to everything GNU stood for.
>
> I don't understand that.  I don't understand in what way mentioning
> "GNU" in "GNU/Linux" does damage to what GNU stands for.
>
> > It takes away from the efforts of those who've worked there, and
> > focuses everything on RMS's attempt to get recognition for GNU.
>
> Uhm, I also don't understand that.  If I understood you correctly, you
> say that calling the system GNU/Linux "takes away from the efforts of
> those who've worked there"?  I think, the opposite is the case.  By
> not mentioning GNU in the name of the system, we narrow the efforts of
> the people working on the GNU packages, which make the system usable.
>
> > Note that he doesn't want you to change the name to Linux/GNU. He
> > wants top billing for GNU, he wants GNU/Linux, So why is GNU more
> > important than Linux?
>
> Well, of course, Linux and GNU components are the most essential
> pieces of the system, but they are essential in a different way.  I
> could imagine that the order "GNU/Linux" has historical roots.  The
> GNU Project was working on this free, Unix like operating system,
> named "GNU".  Many components of GNU were finished, but the Hurd core
> was not ready yet.  At that time Linux envolved and it became obvious
> that all the GNU components combined with the Linux component can form
> a more or less complete operating system.  So the name of system
> wouldn't be GNU anymore - but GNU/Linux.
>
> > So while we're at it, We then should be accurate and then call it
> > GNU/KDE/SUN/IBM/QT/Python/Drobbins/partsrippedfrombsd Gentoo Linux.
>
> Well.  There is one difference.  If you remove the GNU component of
> that system, you are in serious trouble, as you _have_ to replace
> that.  Otherwise it wouldn't be fun.  But, if you remove what you call
> "KDE/SUN/IBM/QT/Python/Drobbins/partsrippedfrombsd", you would still
> have the GNU/Linux system in a working state.
>
> Of course, we can build a system, which has as few GNU components as
> possible.  There are alternative libc implementation, there are not
> only GNU compilers, the GNU {shell,file,find,etc}utils could be
> probably very easily replaced with BSD code or something else.  I
> would not call that GNU/Linux then.  But the system we are talking
> about contains essential GNU software - without it, the system would
> be quiet useless.  It "runs" - I mean, you can also use a nail to put
> a hammer into the wall.
>
> > Seriously, take a look at how people look at GNU, It's a toolset,
> > it's a compiler, it's a source license, but since when did it become
> > a religious movement, that required people to change their very
> > name, in order to honor it?
>
> Well, I don't like at GNU like if it would be only a toolset.  Maybe
> you should browse around http://www.gnu.org/ to get a better overview
> about what GNU is.  Nor is it something religious for me.  And of
> course GNU does not require or force any project to change their name.
> It's a free decision for those project wether they want to support GNU
> or not.
>
> > Linux is an operating system, it is a collection of parts.
>
> I don't want to disagree with the general sentence "Linux is an
> operating system" - simply because it is obvious that there are
> different definitions of "operating system" (I remember for instance
> that Andrew S. Tanenbaum is using the term "operating system" in his
> book "Modern Operating Systems" to refer to "kernels").  I can only
> say that I don't call Linux an operating system, since I prefer
> another definition.
>
> > GNU is just one of the many parts, giving in to changing the name
> > for GNU today just means 3 months down the road, the next license
> > that comes along will want the same thing.
>
> As I already wrote in a different mail, it's not about licenses, it is
> about software components.  And, I have to agree with you - if Gentoo
> plans to substitute all these essential GNU components in Gentoo, then
> it indeed wouldn't make much sense to change the name to GNU/Linux
> now.  But I am not aware of such plans.
>
> > There is a reason why RedHat, SuSE and Mandrake basically ignored
> > RMS, It makes NO sense to change the name, If RMS wants credit, fine
> > add information in the docs, [...]
>
> Not RMS wants credit, he doesn't ask Gentoo to use the term RMS/Linux.
> He wants credit for the GNU Project, which means: many, many other
> people.
>
> > It's suicide to take a marketable name, and ruin it by adding GNU in
> > front of it.
>
> "ruin it"?
>
> > Brand names are marketable because they are unique. They are
> > memorable, they have a image associated with it. GNU/Linux, Just
> > frankly is the worst marketing plan I've ever heard of.
>
> Besides the fact that I don't see the point (I don't know much about
> marketing) - why is marketing that important for Gentoo?
>
> > Debian was probably hoping to get more publicity from it, as they
> > were in danger of well, ending up where they are...
>
> Debian is very different from Gentoo, we know that.  But you make that
> sound so negative - just because it is different?  As far as I can
> see, Debian is a quite successfull operating system.
>
> > I'd rather quit developing, than bow in to political pressure from
> > RMS or anyone else.
>
> Sorry, "pressure"?  I remember RMS's mail to this list and seriously,
> I cannot find a single bit of pressure in it regarding the term
> GNU/Linux.
>
> Thanks.
>
> 		moritz
> --
> moritz@×××××××××××××××.de - http://duesseldorf.ccc.de/~moritz/
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I VERY much agree in this case with moritz !

-- 
Karan "klinx/karan"              |  /*\
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